Dilemma - to pay or not to pay?

I’m the same way. Rarely do any of my vehicles see a shop except for a situation like you described. If I can’t repair it I would have asked the shop for a flat diagnostic rate and if they could not locate the problem agree to settle on a number before diagnostic work initiates. Many times the type of problem you described are ideal for dealers and they are much better in locating/fixing because of the diagnostic equipment they have. Not a fan of dealers for much but at times they may be the cheaper route. Much of the diagnostic equipment they use is far superior to what is found in small shops and potentially would have quickly found your problem.
To answer your question they worked on it so you legally owe it. A reputable shop would/should give you a break on the labor rate since they could not help you.

I think it's worth asking if they would split the cost of the bill with you.

Yes, you are obligated to pay. However, I would talk to them and see about a negotiated price, especially if they didn't find and fix the problem, but you did. Many professionals are willing to talk it over and work it out. Just remain calm and courteous, and they may appreciate your position. It would beat having to take you to court for $450.

I had an inverter problem that I was pretty sure was a cabling issue. The problem appeared after I lubed the battery tray slides, and I had been sliding the tray in and out several times. I figured I knocked something loose. To try to nail the problem down, I traced wiring, measured the voltage at the inverter and reset the inverter 3 ways. No dice, so I gave up and had the shop take a look. I told the shop owner that I believed it was a cabling issue and outlined the troubleshooting I had done.

He called me a week later saying the inverter was bad and he wanted to sell me a new Xantrex. I said ok, but not to destroy the Magnum because it was under warranty and I would have it fixed and keep it as a spare.

They put 2 new inverters in before they traced the problem to a bad ground. When he gave me the bill, I made sure that the original estimate was all he charged me for (plus some "shop supplies" whatever they are) and he didn't charge me labor for swapping out perfectly good inverters to find a bad ground.

I'm willing to bet the Magnum is fine and it ticks me off that 'll have to spend some money shipping it to Everett WA to prove it.

.....Would you go to work for 4 hours and not get paid?

Actually - YES - I used to be in the business of solving technical problems. If I could not solve the customer's problems, then I would not charge them. The customer hired me to solve a problem and I failed - it's on me.

In this case, the shop told me that by doing X, it would fix the problem, they did X and it DIDN'T fix the problem. They offered to do Y - at which point I said no and fixed the problem myself.

That is why I asked the original question;

BTW - I already paid - I was wondering what the etiquette is, so next time I know for sure.

thanks to all

Gerry

Yeah - you're obligated to pay. You tried and couldn't find the problem, they tried and got the same result you did.

Where I *might* agree with you is if I took the car back to the *dealer*.



Or, what you could have done, is take it back to them - have a discussion - have them *fix* it and negotiate a new cost that factors in the fact that you did the debugging.

I had my own ATV repair business. I worked a a guy Yamaha with an intermittent problem for about 8 hours. I was stumped and told him he had better take it to the dealer. He picked it up and I said no charge, if I can't fix it you don't pay. He was extremely happy. The Yamaha shop said it needed a new carb. He called to confirm. I said there is absolutely no problem with the carb. Dealer insisted it was and he let them put one on. You can guess that didn't fix it. $600 and would not take carb back because it had gas run through it! He wanted to bring it back to me. Reluctantly I did so. To my surprise it stopped working when he brought it back. Was the stator. I charged for the part and 1 1/2 hours at $40 an hour. I treat folks like I like to be treated.

If they worked on it at an agreed to labor rate, why would you not be responsible to pay for their efforts.

At some point you must have the ability to stop them... would not want that open-ended as they could work on it for years, in the extreme.

If they made a fair effort and you agreed to the rate and the duration, of their effort, pay the man.

Been there and done that.

Follow through with what you agreed in advance.
You must have known the shop rate and asked for them to spend time.
I would pay.

They spent 4 hours tracing stuff and now you dont want to pay them for their time? Would you go to work for 4 hours and not get paid?