Pulling ethanol out of gas

I think many writing here aren't old enough to remember how many miles we were getting between rebuilds on car engines when the gas was leaded.

we were lucky to get 50k miles before it would smoke like a smudge pot.

I wish my aircraft engine had as much technology in it as my Jeep does.

Gdetrailer wrote:

JaxDad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
By the way, running 93 octane is not only a waste of your money but also potentially damaging your equipment.. That higher octane can delay the burn in th cylinder to the point of the exhaust valve opening on 4 cycles burning the valve.. On 2 cycles, that can damage the exhaust port and/or scorch the piston.

Myself and almost every other private pilot I know runs 100LL in all their small engines, always have, never a problem.

Most of those "pilots" most likely do not own their "small engines" equipment LONG ENOUGH to notice that damage..

Airplane engines are one thing, they ARE DESIGNED from the ground up to RUN 100 Octane fuel..

Apparently you lack an understanding of both pilots and the planes they fly.

Pilots are used to operating and maintaining engines that are often MANY decades old. Small engines are the same, why throw away a perfectly good engine just because it's a few years old. The mower we use to cut around the aircraft tie downs at our airport is a 1960's National Triplex powered by the original Koehler 8hp. The 'mule' we use to jockey aircraft around is a 1940's WW2 surplus Jeep. All of them run on AVGAS and have since they arrived at the airport.

One of mine, the one I fly most often, was designed in 1942 and mine was built in 1953. It was DESIGNED to run on "80/87" (dual octane ratings indicate the octane at lean mixture used for cruising along and rich mixture for climb out) but since that fuel was phased out some 25 years ago the nine has been running on 100/130. The manufacturer Lycoming said that this is just fine with them.

Alcohol timeline

Henry Ford, among others, thought that alcohol would be a predominate fuel in the future. So does Brazil.

I've heard this quote attributed to Ford after he designed and built the Model B engine: "This engine will cultivate 100 acres of potatoes by the alcohol made from one acre of that crop".

IMO, alcohol is not a bad fuel. It can be made from nearly anything organic that can be distilled. It burns cleaner than gasoline and can deliver near the same power/weight. The problems encountered are with engines not designed to burn the fuel (some larger outboard engines) and with fuel systems having components that fare badly with alcohol.

As I posted earlier, most small engine fuel system problems that I have encountered were about storage or the introduction of air into the fuel system. It's easy to blame an alcohol blended fuel for your carburetor clogging but that sediment is probably due to the gas deteriorating and not due to alcohol.

Tom/Barb wrote:
There is only one Aircraft certified engine that was designed around today's fuel, Rotax! How many aircraft do you know of that run them?

There's much more kerosene (Jet-A) burned by aircraft than gasoline, whether avgas or automotive.

Not sure what "today's fuel" is, except something which can be purchased today.

Mr GDEtrailer...some states have had alcohol longer than others. This is a question not a comment --- what date mandated federal minimum alcohol percentage?

The last trip to a municipal strip had me staring at an 80 octane pump. I assumed it was rated at Motor octane specs and not R+M/2 Has this fuel disappeared?

If folks only took some time to understand the process of growing corn consumes tons of fertilizer and insecticide, and takes a TON of energy to process into ethanol they would understand gasohol comes at a steep price. It's all subsidized out of YOUR wallet. Complaints? Forward them to your commodities broker. The one with the 77' yacht on his way to the Med.

Quote "Myself and almost every other private pilot I know runs 100LL in all their small engines, always have, never a problem."

Aircraft small engines can run auto fuel with the proper STC paper work. Your aircraft must run high oct fuel because of the fixed timing set at up to 28 degrees BTDC

Quote "Airplane engines are one thing, they ARE DESIGNED from the ground up to RUN 100 Octane fuel".

The Aircraft engine technology was thought of in the late 20 and early 30s. they had no idea that we would still be running the old school engine.

There is only one Aircraft certified engine that was designed around today's fuel ,, Rotax! How many aircraft do you know of that run them?

I've never read an engine manual that said MAXIMUM 87 octane &/or DO NOT USE 89 or 91 or 100...

I have a couple that say "higher octane fuel is not necessary...".

Every one I own says "minimum 'whatever' octane" not Maximum.

I have a motorcyle that the manual says "Always use unleaded fuel with a minimum octane rating of 91 RON..."

I sifted the manual - nope ... no "Maximum Octane...."

JaxDad wrote:

Gdetrailer wrote:
By the way, running 93 octane is not only a waste of your money but also potentially damaging your equipment.. That higher octane can delay the burn in th cylinder to the point of the exhaust valve opening on 4 cycles burning the valve.. On 2 cycles, that can damage the exhaust port and/or scorch the piston.

Myself and almost every other private pilot I know runs 100LL in all their small engines, always have, never a problem.

Most of those "pilots" most likely do not own their "small engines" equipment LONG ENOUGH to notice that damage..

Airplane engines are one thing, they ARE DESIGNED from the ground up to RUN 100 Octane fuel..

Small engines are not, in fact, looked through a bunch of my small engine manuals.. Some say to use REGULAR AUTOMOTIVE GRADE FUELS, some say min 87 octane, only ONE said 89 Octane..

The newest I have which is a Harbor Freight 8Kw Gen states 10% is fine and 15% or E85 is NOT ALLOWED and the engine only requires 87 octane..

NONE said 93 octane..

Have a Mac saw manual from 1995 which clearly states that it IS compatible with 10% Ethanol (yep, that IS TEN PERCENT ETHANOL) and that goes back to the 1990s (NINETEEN NINETIES) which is before 2000s..

That means there HAS been up to 10% Ethanol in gas for a min of 25 (TWENTY FIVE) yrs..

I am not scared of E gas or the supposed damage that folks blame it for..

I don't care for the way it is forced on the public (but it had to since the corn lobby could not get folks to buy "gasohol").

I don't care for the fact that it gets less gas mileage which means more fuel is used, which means we actually use MORE crude oil which in the end costs consumers more in the wallet.

I don't care for the extra corn that is planted, corn is a very destructive crop, takes a lot of nutrition out of the dirt.. That means to keep those crops going the farmer MUST now depend MORE on fertilizers which are ALSO derived for OIL AND GAS..

Corn requires considerable use of TRACTORS which consume large amounts of DIESEL, in planting, cultivating, harvesting, hauling to processing plants..

Then the act of processing corn into Ethanol requires considerable energy input (electric and other fuels to keep the plant running) and not to mention CONSIDERABLE AMOUNTS OF WATER USED IN THE PROCESSES that will need disposed of..

Ethanol is not a clean environmental friendly fuel and is a net loss in energy (takes more energy to make than what is stores).

But it is here, it is mandated to be in the fuel and it is not going away.

What you fail to understand is Ethanol does have some purpose in fuel, it acts as a "oxygenate" to help your engine BURN CLEANER. It replaced the LEAD and MTBE additives that at one time was used..

Running your vehicle engines on pure non alcohol fuels with no alternate oxygenate can be considered tampering with your emissions since it will affect the efficiency of the emission systems..

Even many small engines fall under emissions controls now days, some now have cat converters built into the mufflers..

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Myself, I have given up trying to outguess my car's ECU. But for a fact the small amount of lead in 100LL is the best "saver of exhaust valves and seat" in the business. For small 4-cycle motors.

Aviation fuel is far superior to commercial gasoline. The grades include a substantial percentage of alkylate, fewer "heavy ends" and strict quality control. But the lead content means DEATH to automotive emission controlled sensors and the catalytic muffler.

But commodities brokers are pulling their hair out at the lost potential of fattened income because Mexican gasoline does not contain cattle feed. Just think! Another vacation palace forfeited because commodities revenue has not been maximized.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

I am an A&P with Inspection Authorization, and a pilot, I overhaul the 0-200 and 0-300 engines found in Cessna 150 and early 172s.
I'll tell ya that the only good thing the Tetraethyl Lead does for us is the octane boost it gives us.
Lead chokes the valve guides causing the valve to stick in the guides, it does nothing to save the valve or it's seats.
You can see my work by following the "Fairchild Flyer on You Tube.

Oil pressure check of the Warner 165
here is the first start of the Warner

Myself, I have given up trying to outguess my car's ECU. But for a fact the small amount of lead in 100LL is the best "saver of exhaust valves and seat" in the business. For small 4-cycle motors.

Aviation fuel is far superior to commercial gasoline. The grades include a substantial percentage of alkylate, fewer "heavy ends" and strict quality control. But the lead content means DEATH to automotive emission controlled sensors and the catalytic muffler.

But commodities brokers are pulling their hair out at the lost potential of fattened income because Mexican gasoline does not contain cattle feed. Just think! Another vacation palace forfeited because commodities revenue has not been maximized.

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaa!