I'm stubborn. When I found out how stupidly expensive adequate "Surge Protectors" cost, I hit the roof. Screw that. I ordered the components.Designed for 180 volt peak-to-peak protection ((the standard down here is 127vac 60Hz.)20 mm Metal Oxide Varistors10 mm Metal Oxide Varistors (10 volts higher rating)Transient Voltage Surge Protection bi-directional diodes 4ns reaction timeGas Discharge Tube devicesL1-L0L1-Earth GroundLO-Earth Ground(8) MOVS(4) TVS(2) GDTI'll see about sending some images to NinerBikes.If you can do basic soldering, you can do your own and end up with genuine protection and not a vastly overpriced fraud.BTW: A fully functional grounded isolation transformer is 100,000 times better than my gizmo.

My Progessive unit also protects the electric units from low voltage which will burn out any appliance if left on with low voltage. So I have high and low and miswired connection protection. Some things are worth the cost.

Ava wrote:My Progessive unit also protects the electric units from low voltage which will burn out any appliance if left on with low voltage. So I have high and low and miswired connection protection. Some things are worth the cost.What he said.. :)

Perhaps I'm not so smart - BUT....I bought a progressive, installed it myself and it has saved every electrical thing in the rig - TWICE!!I consider it an EXCELLENT investment!!

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:I'm stubborn. When I found out how stupidly expensive adequate "Surge Protectors" cost, I hit the roof. Screw that. I ordered the components.Designed for 180 volt peak-to-peak protection ((the standard down here is 127vac 60Hz.)20 mm Metal Oxide Varistors10 mm Metal Oxide Varistors (10 volts higher rating)Transient Voltage Surge Protection bi-directional diodes 4ns reaction timeGas Discharge Tube devicesL1-L0L1-Earth GroundLO-Earth Ground(8) MOVS(4) TVS(2) GDTI'll see about sending some images to NinerBikes.If you can do basic soldering, you can do your own and end up with genuine protection and not a vastly overpriced fraud.BTW: A fully functional grounded isolation transformer is 100,000 times better than my gizmo.Mex,I am not sure what you are looking at that is so expensive..The parts you listed plus RFI/EMF suppression (IE RF choke/capacitive network), on/off switch AND a 12A-15A breaker are typically included in good brands of computer type surge protector/outlets.. Additionally good quality surge protectors will also have the surge (MOV and bidirectional diodes FUSED, when the diodes blow, the fuse opens and the surge protection fault indicator light will show that you no longer have surge protection..You can get a Panamax protector for $33 HEREAPC makes a good one for $33 HEREby the time you buy ALL of the parts PLUS outlets, pigtail wire and a pretty box to put it all in AND your time (my labor isn't cheap) you could have bought a ready made unit..If you don't want RFI suppression you can get surge protection only for $8.99 which would have MOVs but not the diodes HEREI would definitely not recommend using those bare parts without adding a fuse in series with the protection.. I HAVE seen those bidirectional diodes SHORT and if you don't fuse those things you will end up with more fireworks than the Fourth of July.. :ENot a place to "cut corners"..

Hi Gde,Do the ones you listed handle 30 amps and/or 50 amps?Gdetrailer wrote: I am not sure what you are looking at that is so expensive..The parts you listed plus RFI/EMF suppression (IE RF choke/capacitive network), on/off switch AND a 12A-15A breaker are typically included in good brands of computer type surge protector/outlets.. Additionally good quality surge protectors will also have the surge (MOV and bidirectional diodes FUSED, when the diodes blow, the fuse opens and the surge protection fault indicator light will show that you no longer have surge protection..You can get a Panamax protector for $33 HEREAPC makes a good one for $33 HEREby the time you buy ALL of the parts PLUS outlets, pigtail wire and a pretty box to put it all in AND your time (my labor isn't cheap) you could have bought a ready made unit..If you don't want RFI suppression you can get surge protection only for $8.99 which would have MOVs but not the diodes HEREI would definitely not recommend using those bare parts without adding a fuse in series with the protection.. I HAVE seen those bidirectional diodes SHORT and if you don't fuse those things you will end up with more fireworks than the Fourth of July.. :ENot a place to "cut corners"..

Transient Voltage Spike Protection Home Made Device

Gdetrailer
Explorer III
Sep 24, 2015
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:

Power strip "sooooooge protectors" are not fixable. Damned lucky to find one with 14 gauge wire. I have opened up too many and damaged a rib laughing myself sick.

Sorry you have a run of bad luck with premade surge protectors..

I have indeed had good luck in repairing QUALITY built ones like Panamax, APC, Tripplite.. Those indeed use a min of 14 gauge wire not only in the line cord but INSIDE..

Somewhere around my junk piles I have a 15yr old Panamax that took a pretty good surge, shorted the bidirectional diodes and blew the internal protection fuse.. Well built unit..

Never bothered ordering new diodes for it and just tossed it into the "round to it" box since I had other surge protectors..
MEXICOWANDERER
Explorer
Sep 25, 2015
IMHO Superb Post GDETrailer!

Down here transient voltages eat IC and discrete components like Nachos. They go on and on, 24/7 wearing down the p/n barriers. Electrolytic caps eventually talk to each other by smoke signals. Light off a microwave and eventually you will hear the Frankenstein "NYANNN ZOOOT" from the control board.

I tried to make it clear from the onset maybe I failed - my device does NOTHING to correct voltage irregularities lasting more than a few milli-seconds. That is a job for another type of device. But voltage correction devices are based on autoformer design which absolutely does ZIP as far as transients are concerned. An autoformer must have additional circuitry built in for it to do anything at all about transient voltage spikes. These spikes can be and are often positive, negative amplitude or BOTH oriented.

What is clearly different about what I build is the overkill redundancy of the MOV capacity and the TVS capacity. Both have finite lifetimes. Like having 64 shock absorbers. When a standard "surge suppressor" is throwing in the towel, my device is laughing. The last Tripplite box I tore into had every single MOV open circuit and both TVS diodes shorted. The GDT device, emphasis on singular was fine as it fluoresced at 210 volts.

I meant it when I wrote a worn out "surge protector" is like an empty fire extinguisher. False lying sense of security.

I cannot open up and examine every "surge protector" on the market. But I damned sure can tell you nothing affordable is going going to have six 20 mm MOVS (4) TVS and a pair of GDT, one from L1 to L0 the other from L1 to earth ground.

A direct lightning strike on a transmission line, enables relays to shunt the jolt to earth. Upstream and downstream to cut affected phase continuity and a third to earth the strike. A second's worth of interruption. DISTRIBUTION transformers are not auto transformers, so to a great degree they shunt power through L0 to earth ground. But obviously lots of runaway "joules" run down the line and hide in your precious electronics circuitry.

A strike on a powerline DISTRIBUTION circuit, the WYE connected 240 web down here is Armageddon for the entire line. I have seen 40Kw transformers ON FIRE jump their brackets and drag wires to the ground. Most people are too busy putting out fires in their home electrical to notice. The USA uses individual transformers for residences. Mexico uses much larger transformers that feed 240 volt four wire networks that can power 50 homes. All that network is exposed to lightning.

Unplugging is absolutely the best way to interrupt a lightning strike path. Down here a strike can occur two miles distant on a distribution network and it's time to pray.

To say lightning acts Quixotic may be the understatement of the century.

The sole hope is diversion...

IF an alternate path is presented to the pre-ionization feeler

THE post ionization feeler MAY choose the easier path

The nanosecond response time of the TVS diodes allows time to be bought.

Enough time for the MOVS to light off and burn out

And the GDT to delay long enough for a path to be decided upon.

Microseconds later the main pulse USUSALLY follows the trail of ionization and the pulse feeler.

To the easiest way.

Up the ground wire, and out the rig to L1 and the clouds.

Lots of if's but lots of undeniable successes. The best success a person can hope for is a disappeared service, vaporized shore power plug, utterly destroyed breaker box, and a hopefully small fire.

oI won't bother telling you what the alternative to this is like in an RV. A bad strike can dig a two foot deep trench, blast through foot thick solid concrete like it was paper, melt fifty feet of copper water pipe and blast out of the other side of the house. I've audited this type of damage with my own eyes (Tahoe National Forest Fallen Leaf Lake USFS station on the ridge) Not a tower. A ground single story facility. It happened in the early 70's. Anyone living up there should inquire with the USFS. It shows the power of lightning.

There EXIST good spike protectors. But none of them mate well with a recreational vehicle electrical circuit. BTW in hopes and prayer my circuit uses a 12 gauge earth ground conductor. Most RVs have 8 gauge ground circuits.

One can only hope. Thank God for individual RICE GRAIN fuses. It's stupid IMHO to have an individual fuse fail and fail the entire circuit.
Gdetrailer
Explorer III
Sep 25, 2015
MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
IMHO Superb Post GDETrailer!

Down here transient voltages eat IC and discrete components like Nachos. They go on and on, 24/7 wearing down the p/n barriers. Electrolytic caps eventually talk to each other by smoke signals. Light off a microwave and eventually you will hear the Frankenstein "NYANNN ZOOOT" from the control board.

I tried to make it clear from the onset maybe I failed - my device does NOTHING to correct voltage irregularities lasting more than a few milli-seconds. That is a job for another type of device. But voltage correction devices are based on autoformer design which absolutely does ZIP as far as transients are concerned. An autoformer must have additional circuitry built in for it to do anything at all about transient voltage spikes. These spikes can be and are often positive, negative amplitude or BOTH oriented.

What is clearly different about what I build is the overkill redundancy of the MOV capacity and the TVS capacity. Both have finite lifetimes. Like having 64 shock absorbers. When a standard "surge suppressor" is throwing in the towel, my device is laughing. The last Tripplite box I tore into had every single MOV open circuit and both TVS diodes shorted. The GDT device, emphasis on singular was fine as it fluoresced at 210 volts.

I meant it when I wrote a worn out "surge protector" is like an empty fire extinguisher. False lying sense of security.

I cannot open up and examine every "surge protector" on the market. But I damned sure can tell you nothing affordable is going going to have six 20 mm MOVS (4) TVS and a pair of GDT, one from L1 to L0 the other from L1 to earth ground.

A direct lightning strike on a transmission line, enables relays to shunt the jolt to earth. Upstream and downstream to cut affected phase continuity and a third to earth the strike. A second's worth of interruption. DISTRIBUTION transformers are not auto transformers, so to a great degree they shunt power through L0 to earth ground. But obviously lots of runaway "joules" run down the line and hide in your precious electronics circuitry.

A strike on a powerline DISTRIBUTION circuit, the WYE connected 240 web down here is Armageddon for the entire line. I have seen 40Kw transformers ON FIRE jump their brackets and drag wires to the ground. Most people are too busy putting out fires in their home electrical to notice. The USA uses individual transformers for residences. Mexico uses much larger transformers that feed 240 volt four wire networks that can power 50 homes. All that network is exposed to lightning.

Unplugging is absolutely the best way to interrupt a lightning strike path. Down here a strike can occur two miles distant on a distribution network and it's time to pray.

To say lightning acts Quixotic may be the understatement of the century.

The sole hope is diversion...

IF an alternate path is presented to the pre-ionization feeler

THE post ionization feeler MAY choose the easier path

The nanosecond response time of the TVS diodes allows time to be bought.

Enough time for the MOVS to light off and burn out

And the GDT to delay long enough for a path to be decided upon.

Microseconds later the main pulse USUSALLY follows the trail of ionization and the pulse feeler.

To the easiest way.

Up the ground wire, and out the rig to L1 and the clouds.

Lots of if's but lots of undeniable successes. The best success a person can hope for is a disappeared service, vaporized shore power plug, utterly destroyed breaker box, and a hopefully small fire.

oI won't bother telling you what the alternative to this is like in an RV. A bad strike can dig a two foot deep trench, blast through foot thick solid concrete like it was paper, melt fifty feet of copper water pipe and blast out of the other side of the house. I've audited this type of damage with my own eyes (Tahoe National Forest Fallen Leaf Lake USFS station on the ridge) Not a tower. A ground single story facility. It happened in the early 70's. Anyone living up there should inquire with the USFS. It shows the power of lightning.

There EXIST good spike protectors. But none of them mate well with a recreational vehicle electrical circuit. BTW in hopes and prayer my circuit uses a 12 gauge earth ground conductor. Most RVs have 8 gauge ground circuits.

One can only hope. Thank God for individual RICE GRAIN fuses. It's stupid IMHO to have an individual fuse fail and fail the entire circuit.
dbates
Explorer
Sep 25, 2015
MEXICOWANDERER, if you're happy with your homemade surge protector that’s great. But I'm no electronic genius, can’t build my own and if I did it might not work right when it’s needed plus based on the hundreds of testimonials on this forum about how well Progressive Industries has protected them from multiple power problems I’m happy with the Progressive Industries’ 30 amp EMS I purchased over nine years ago.

Good luck with yours.

Dave
pnichols
Explorer II
Sep 25, 2015
Nice discussion going on above between electronics/electrical tinkerers trying to protect their RV electricals from various surges and slumps - including the ultimate surge ... lightening.

Regarding protection of RV electricals from lightening, however, the DW floored me years ago with her ultra-off-the-wall-cheap K.I.S.S way to protect our RV's electricals when camping with electrical hookups and there is word of potentially any lightening in the vicinity of us ... she makes me disconnect the RV from shore power and go into drycamp mode. It takes a direct bolt hit to put things out of business, then. :B

FWIW, if we were full-timers I'd save up the shekels and do it right with just the right surge protection and a Hughes Autoformer - as talked about in this thread: https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28543300.cfm
time2roll
Nomad
Sep 25, 2015
I worry far more about voltage drifting up and down vs a spike.

Only surge I think about as common would be when the power is interrupted or during reconnect. Either way the relay can just open and keep power off until voltage is stabilized.

+1 for just unplugging during a lightening storm.
pianotuna
Nomad III
Sep 25, 2015
Hi,

If I understand Gde, If I plug in a regular surge suppressor I get some coverage to the entire RV on a 30 amp circuit. How much protection depends on the capacity of the particular device.

For a 50 amp service I'd need to use a surge device on each leg.

Is that correct?
westend
Explorer
Sep 25, 2015
. wrote:
It takes a direct bolt hit to put things out of business, then.
Or a nearby strike. The marketing and naming of these devices as surge protectors leads folks to think that they are protected from anything, including lightning. There is mucho difference between a line surge and a bolt of lightning. Lightning has like 5 million joules of energy.
SCVJeff
Explorer
Sep 25, 2015
dbates wrote:
MEXICOWANDERER, if you're happy with your homemade surge protector that’s great. But I'm no electronic genius, can’t build my own and if I did it might not work right when it’s needed plus based on the hundreds of testimonials on this forum about how well Progressive Industries has protected them from multiple power problems I’m happy with the Progressive Industries’ 30 amp EMS I purchased over nine years ago.

Good luck with yours.

Dave
As Mex stated earlier, the Progressive and similar others are COMPLETELY different animals.

Many years ago I had a very complex amateur repeater at a friends house on a hill in LA. I built the TTL control system (22 logic & audio cards) as well as the +5, +-15v supply that ran the entire system. It was protected by a ring of GE MOV's (un-fused, wouldn't have it any other way) on both the AC In, as well as the various outputs.
The 65' tower blew down in an 80mph windstorm and dropped it across the 12kv feeder to the neighborhood. There was enough energy that the rotor controller sitting on a metal shelf welded itself to the top, and the outline of the shelf laser cut the rug it was sitting on perfectly. The 19" rack housing all the electronics etched out the carpet all the way through to the concrete as well. All electronics, including the mighty IBM 20A supply, and everything it fed were trashed. The only things that survived was my GE MOV'd power supply, and anything tied to it. How the house didn't catch fire I don't know.. That event is all the testimonial for GE MOV's I'll ever need.
Coolerman
Explorer
Sep 25, 2015
MEXICOWANDERER, if you care to publish your design and a parts list, I would be interested in it. I could easily build one and need one for my new RV. I'm like you, if I can build it vs buying it, I will.
I work in the process control industry and we use products made by Transtector. These use SASD (Silicon Avalanche Suppressor Diode) and MOVs to protect our AC devices. When they fail they turn on a light and/or trigger a relay that we read with a PLC, but they still allow the devices to work. Some of these devices are "mission critical" and cannot be taken off line without consequences. Most of our customers have large lightning/surge/over/under voltage protectors at the service entrance so we only provide point source protection devices.

One of my customers in Florida installed a lightning "umbrella" system. It's a type of lightning rod system, mounted on several towers scattered about the site, and about 100 feet in the air, that bleeds the ground charge into the atmosphere preventing the charge between ground and cloud from building up to the point of a leader forming, thereby triggering an upstroke. They have never been hit by lightning to my knowledge.