What Ethanol Does And Doesn't Do (PDF)

Hudsoner wrote:

westend wrote:

Hudsoner wrote:

westend wrote:

Denny & Jami wrote:
The study looks at E85 not E10 that's the norm, I've traveled all over the country and I can count on one hand how many stations even had E85, not sure who paid for the study but it was a waste of money.

Denny

We have a lot of E85 up here, in MN. My buddy Roger used to fill his 2001 Impala with 1/2 tank of regular and 1/2 tank of E85. He said mileage dipped by 2 MPG and I believe him as I later owned this same car and running regular only (E10), I matched his numbers.

.

I live in the suburbs of St. Paul/Minneapolis, and I have yet to see a station that sells E85.

It could be that they sell the stuff out state, but not in the Twin Cities (at least not on the east side).

You're on the wrong side of town, lol. Over here, on the West side, all Holiday stores carry E-85. You do have Holiday over there behind the Iron Curtain? :B

Yes, we have two of them (the Erickson's who own them, are from here), but neither of them have E85 at their pumps.

E-85 locator Lake Elmo or the six stations in St. Paul may work for you. This is one of those "if you don't look for them, they're hard to find" deals. Personally, I don't know anyone that uses E-85, exclusively, myself included.

NinerBikes wrote: "Ethanol is fluff in your fuel tank, a large percentage of alcohol is, by weight, oxygen. Why would you want to carry around oxygen, when you can get it free for ignition from the air intake? Therein lies the fallacy. Splitting hydrocarbons and taking free oxygen from the air makes energy. Providing oxygen in the fuel is just plain stupid, from a chemical reaction point of view. It adds expense, while not providing energy to propel you forward. Dumb, really, really dumb."

Well lets be accurate if we're going to talk about ethanol. Ethanol is +-35% oxygen by weight. The oxygen in ethanol provides no energy to the combustion reaction because of the bonding in the molecule. Think of ethanol as partially burned ethane in liquid form. At room temperature ethane is a gas. It's true that a portion of the ethanol molecule is dead weight/volume as a fuel but it does increase the octane rating of regular unleaded gasoline it is added to which can partially compensate for some of the energy lost due to its lower BTU rating per gallon compared to straight gasoline. (if the engine is tuned to take advantage of the higher octane rating)

All politics aside, remember the first Arab oil embargo of the 1970s? Gas lines, gas rationing, price hikes etc. As a country with few oil resources, Brazil surely does. Low fuel availability really put the country in the hurt locker. As a country with lots of fertile land, they decided to use sugar cane to make ethanol as motor fuel so they could minimize their energy dependence on foreign countries. They never looked back. Since the mid 70's Brazil has used 100% ethanol (as well as gasoline) for motor fuel. Where are the problems? Research is currently going on to manufacture ethanol from a variety of plants/animals other than corn. Like weeds, bacteria, algae, etc. Up scaling the processes is still a problem.

It's true, we won't be running out of petroleum in the near future but that doesn't guarantee the availability. IMO, if petroleum for any reason becomes unavailable, or marginal, not having alternative fuels is just plain dumb, really dumb.

Chum lee
(no affiliation to farming or petroleum industries)

Some may smirk at the idea they are paying speculators fifty cents a gallon while they sit behind a desk and grin, why not gnaw on a sugar beet and pump food into the gas tank...?

http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/articles/print/volume-17/issue-2/bioenergy/ethanol-from-energy-beets-a-viable-option.html


I am finished with this topic. I do however need to go to the Pemex gasolinera later and fill up with 100.00% refined in USA gasoline. The Mexican government forbids importation of gasoline with the slightest trace of ethanol or methanol in it.

And Google just how close Archer Daniels Midland DC office is from the capitol building and white house...

Baaaaaa

westend wrote:

Hudsoner wrote:

westend wrote:

Denny & Jami wrote:
The study looks at E85 not E10 that's the norm, I've traveled all over the country and I can count on one hand how many stations even had E85, not sure who paid for the study but it was a waste of money.

Denny

We have a lot of E85 up here, in MN. My buddy Roger used to fill his 2001 Impala with 1/2 tank of regular and 1/2 tank of E85. He said mileage dipped by 2 MPG and I believe him as I later owned this same car and running regular only (E10), I matched his numbers.

.

I live in the suburbs of St. Paul/Minneapolis, and I have yet to see a station that sells E85.

It could be that they sell the stuff out state, but not in the Twin Cities (at least not on the east side).

You're on the wrong side of town, lol. Over here, on the West side, all Holiday stores carry E-85. You do have Holiday over there behind the Iron Curtain? :B

Yes, we have two of them (the Erickson's who own them, are from here), but neither of them have E85 at their pumps.

Hudsoner wrote:

westend wrote:

Denny & Jami wrote:
The study looks at E85 not E10 that's the norm, I've traveled all over the country and I can count on one hand how many stations even had E85, not sure who paid for the study but it was a waste of money.

Denny

We have a lot of E85 up here, in MN. My buddy Roger used to fill his 2001 Impala with 1/2 tank of regular and 1/2 tank of E85. He said mileage dipped by 2 MPG and I believe him as I later owned this same car and running regular only (E10), I matched his numbers.

.

I live in the suburbs of St. Paul/Minneapolis, and I have yet to see a station that sells E85.

It could be that they sell the stuff out state, but not in the Twin Cities (at least not on the east side).

You're on the wrong side of town, lol. Over here, on the West side, all Holiday stores carry E-85. You do have Holiday over there behind the Iron Curtain? :B

On Topic reply
Yes they did not calculate the added emmissions cost in transport of the additional fuel needed due to the lower MPG. Nor did they include the fuel and emmiossions needed to grow, Cultivate, Harvest, and refine the corn into whisky to add to the fuel So if you add all those in E-xx is more costly and more polluting than E-0 (Pure Gasoline)

gotsmart wrote:
Just stop the Ethanol subsidy to the corn farmers. The subsidy makes it a no-brainer for farmers to grow corn for ethanol. Path of least resistance. Easy income. If the farmers can't make a profit on a crop then they'll switch to a different crop. This would throw the ethanol fuel industry into a tailspin as the production costs would increase due to insufficient domestic supply of raw materials.

There was never a subsidy for Ethanol to the farmers, there was one to the ethanol plants but that expired a while back.

There is still farm subsidies but they cover all farm crops not just corn and come into play when the prices are low.

Denny

noplace2 wrote:
What Ethanol Does And Doesn't Do

I find that it generally improves my mood.

Where as I find it tends to make people Stupid.

Fun story: We were assigned projects for a college class. the project was to present a motivational speech, and we were each given a topic.

Well. we had a class party between assignment and speech.. They had a Keg,,, Did not know how to tap it so I showed 'em.. They offered me the first drink (Sorry, I don't drink that stuff, Coffeeholic) Well. one young lady had to be carried up to bed to sleep it off.

her Motivational topic: The Evils of Booze.

Just stop the Ethanol subsidy to the corn farmers. The subsidy makes it a no-brainer for farmers to grow corn for ethanol. Path of least resistance. Easy income. If the farmers can't make a profit on a crop then they'll switch to a different crop. This would throw the ethanol fuel industry into a tailspin as the production costs would increase due to insufficient domestic supply of raw materials.

westend wrote:

Denny & Jami wrote:
The study looks at E85 not E10 that's the norm, I've traveled all over the country and I can count on one hand how many stations even had E85, not sure who paid for the study but it was a waste of money.

Denny

We have a lot of E85 up here, in MN. My buddy Roger used to fill his 2001 Impala with 1/2 tank of regular and 1/2 tank of E85. He said mileage dipped by 2 MPG and I believe him as I later owned this same car and running regular only (E10), I matched his numbers.

.

I live in the suburbs of St. Paul/Minneapolis, and I have yet to see a station that sells E85.

It could be that they sell the stuff out state, but not in the Twin Cities (at least not on the east side).