Forum Discussion

Explorer II

Nov 02, 2014

1968 Travel Queen Resto Mod - 4. Bathroom Remodel

What a cute little room huh? DW wasn't terribly excited to see it's charm departed, but we both knew our duffle bag wardrobes of "pop-up campers past" were really the best and easiest method for us to not only travel, but to pack and unpack as well. The extended cab pickups of today had clothes hooks in the back seat from which to put any required hanging clothes. By having a ward-robe in a bag you can move your ward-robe around. At night the space is on the dinette seat, by day it's in the cab-over.

We're also something of hygiene freaks so we weren't really excited about sponge baths and toothpaste spit in the kitchen food prep sink. A bathroom basin was important to us, as was a grey water tank for our "flying under the radar" planned method of travel. A small space for sponge baths and potti needs might just as well double as a wet area right? Pull that out-door shower indoors where it belongs? We had scared one-too many children in the past!

In shopping the RV parts catalogs and online parts sources I found a small basin that in real time now seems very big for it's dimensions, and a specialty size shower pan.

Available residential shower pans are too big, as are most RV shower pans. I had roughly 24" by 27" max floor space to work with. Also, I wanted an edge drain (as opposed to a center drain) because I wanted a trap and a minimal amount (if any) of grey water tank slosh-back into the pan. I found an almost perfect candidate in the Icon Direct 24x27 pan from Canada.

Not only would this pan provide maximum space, it would also allow for a 3/4" insulation board between the shower surround surfaces and the camper exterior walls (both back and side - side meaning the back wall of the new propane tank compartment).

With the original single 20lb horizontal propane tank placement relocated from where the new refrigerator would be, to the right rear side of the camper, here's how the new bathroom profile looks.

The exact height of the shower pan yet to be determined, here is the general placement of the pan and grey water tank. The main visible tank hole is for the dump valve (inside for four season use). Yeah I know, it won't drain completely while on the level, but such are the realities of inside, no basement, special order tanks (and I intend to lift the front of the tank as much as possible, which I believe may well be an inch plus). The upper side hole is for shower drain connection.

The other side of the grey water tank will live under the dinette as far forward as where the pedestal mounts to the floor. Note the main visible hole is for bathroom sink connection and the forward hole for kitchen sink connection. Incidentally the tank size is 21 gallons.

With the toilet in this position you can sit backwards to have a sit down shower and use both the basin and the counter for showering needs.

The shower head will double as the sink faucet and will mount on the forward inside wall to keep it, and any fresh water plumbing on a warm side. The plumbing will be both decorative and multi-functional (1/2" rigid copper pipe) acting as shortest line distances possible (to limit overall water use when calling on hot water) and at the same time acting as towel rods for kitchen towels in the hall and bath towels in the bathroom. The routing will come from the water heater location under the kitchen counter up through the counter along the back camper wall, over the head near the back door, into the bathroom at ceiling height and on to the placement of the shower diverter. But that is a post for another day.

The now vacated holes for a traditional sink faucet will house soap/lotion/shampoo/conditioner surface mount under-counter dispensers (with additional holes in the counter as required). The sink basin will drain down and elbow to the back wall of the propane compartment, then elbow straight down through the compartment to the outside, where it will elbow forward, then left and back into the camper's heated side under the dinette seat where it will trap on the warm side prior to emptying into the grey-water tank. That trap area will live alongside the dual (vented) batteries in a compartment also under the dinette seat. A compartment which will also contain a converter/charger/power box on the aisle side.

Truck Campers

mkirsch
Nomad II
Nov 05, 2014
Make sure you support the floor of that shower pan well. Mine wasn't, and did not take well to 10 years of flexing underfoot.

The cracks were not visible to a casual inspection with the lighting available, and went unnoticed until the second day of the first trip. I was outside making breakfast when someone was inside showering, when I saw a stream of water coming from somewhere it shouldn't be.
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Nov 07, 2014
mkirsch I hear you. I fear to step in my 2013 TT shower. This one will have a 3/4" plywood floor.
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Nov 27, 2014
Structural build for the rough in of the shower pan continues here.
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Dec 19, 2014
While waiting for a first coat of metallic bronze paint to dry on some surfaces of new wood, I moved back into the bathroom. The next step here was to complete the counter top, which doubles as the roof of the propane compartment.

I started by using a carpenter's square to mark right angles on the walls for positioning cleats. I ended up raising one side to allow the counter to sit flat and to slightly angle forward so water won't puddle.

Then more 3/4" x 3/4" cleats cut to size on the table saw, pre-drilled and installed. I made these about 1/16" wider for the width fastened to the sidewalls, just to eliminate a potential screw poking through the other side.

For the camper side wall cleat (the back edge of the counter) I had to add framing in the wall to accept the screws. And, I had to reach about 3" higher than the existing framing so I added this full 1x4 (3.5") board which also gives upper support to Lil' Queenie's bruise on the propane compartment header. If you look close you can see the bruise is healing. It's taking longer than I expected, but for which of us isn't THAT true? We'll probably see it take on some pretty cool colors before it disappears altogether!

The board was glued and stapled and also screwed it those two spots.

Then I added the cleat.

Maybe you can tell from my sometimes overkill construction that I really dislike walking into an RV bathroom and feeling afraid to put pressure on any surface because it feels like I'll push through the wall or something. My materials and construction might be just a little more than necessary, but I feel it doesn't add THAT much more weight and the more solid the construction, the less likely age or flex will loosen and damage the components.

Next I cut the counter top board out of 3/4" plywood and looked close at the basin to figure out how to make the cutout. The fasteners were closer than I had realized. There's only about 3/16" of rim to seal around the sides and front, and in the back, the faucet holes are what's used to fasten the sink to the counter! That may change my plumbing plans a bit. Fortunately, the rim was beveled in such a way that I could mark the cut-out line by following a part of the bevel on an extreme pencil angle. Then I eye-balled the back side, marked it, and made my cut.

Next were the test fits and the drain evaluations.

I had to place the sink back a little more than preferred just because of the front wall's 1 1/4" thickness. That gave me enough room for the under mount tabs.

Even so, both DW and myself can stand in there, face over the sink, and we are directly above it's center. That's perfect, especially if you have eyes closed.

And from below.

Regarding the DWV plumbing. As discussed prior, I agree it's best to include a vent for this drain. It will exit the wall toward the top of the inside of the propane tank. That will make it lower than the sink rim, but I believe it will be okay. The kitchen sink vent was designed the same way from the factory, and it will give me a cleaner install than any other plan.

Also, the sink basin itself accepts a 1 3/8" I.D. hose (or black tailpiece in these pictures). The black tailpiece accepts a 1 1/4" I.D. hose. If used, the black tail-piece will be shortened to fit the propane tanks better.

I might use a 1 1/4" or 1 3/8" flexible Smooth Bor brand hose to plumb it right from the sink down to the grey water tank. By doing so I could easily route it where I need and form a trap on the warm side of the camper just before it enters into the grey water tank. At any rate, my DVW plumbing will route out of the sink, to the back wall of the propane cabinet and down through a hole in it's bottom while the vent tees off to the cabinet face wall. From beneath the cabinet the hose will elbow forward, then make a left turn into the under-dinette cabinet where it will fasten to the wall in a trap loop and then drop into the grey water tank.
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Apr 27, 2015
ticki2 - this quote goes way back, but I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of things you bring up here.

ticki2 wrote:
Dave , I can relate to how you think your way through a process . If I become annoying with comments just tell me to back off .

I have not had good luck with the nut and washer type traps that you show for the shower . They tend to loosen with vibration . If you want the flexibility of taking apart without cutting a fernco fitting works better . I also don't think it's a good idea to reduce down for a shower . I didn't read any mention of a vent for the grey tank .

With the shower drain and top of the grey tank being so close in elevation I will be interested to hear if there is any back up into the shower driving with a full grey tank . I have a similar situation and have not come to a resolve yet .

Fernco Trap: Using one of these instead of the nut and plastic washer still leaves a nut and washer for the downstream connection to the plumbing, what do they call that? A wall adapter? At the residential rough-in location? How do you deal with that? One idea I'm having is to NOT use a Fernco Trap, but instead, a glued trap that uses a Fernco coupler at both up and downstream connections, eliminating all nuts and washer.

Reducing down to 1.25": I appreciate those comments, but one thought is - that reduction might not matter TOO much in a short distance with a minimal water use flow, but MIGHT aid in the "slosh back" with a full tank?

Slosh Back: Do you think the combo of both a trap (1.5" p-trap even a waterless trap as you've suggested too - which uses a flapper valve apparently) and an o-ring sealing tub/shower stopper might control this?

Grey Tank Vent: The tank is vented. It's downstream of the galley sink trap, so that should work well. The bath sink is also vented, but upstream of the bath sink trap so that will aid the basin, but not other fixtures. Do you think the first vent described will aid the shower drain? I'm thinking yes, but maybe haven't thought it through fully.

Minimal Drain Elevation: There is 2.75" between the bottom inside surfaces of the shower drain elbow and the tank entry fitting. That is the distance from inside pipe bottom to inside pipe bottom. Do you think a p-trap will cause a drain problem due to its nature (drainage dropping below the entry into the tank) and a waterless might work better? I've wondered about the benefits between the two styles for the two issues of 1-minimal elevation and 2-slosh back. One the one hand, slosh back may be better controlled with water in a p-trap and o-ring at the drain stopper, due to the waterless trap flapper valve bouncing while under way. But if it allows seepage past it, the o-ring may catch that portion, and on the next turn/stop/acceleration the water will drain back down through the flapper. But on steep down hills will it push past both? Of course at those times most of the waste water weight will bypass a slosh back tendency just due to the position of the shower drain entry into the back portion of the tank.

Thanks for any thoughts you have on this.
ticki2
Explorer
Apr 27, 2015
Dave Pete wrote:
ticki2
Explorer
Apr 27, 2015
Dave Pete wrote:
ticki2 - this quote goes way back, but I'd like to get your thoughts on a couple of things you bring up here.

ticki2 wrote:
Dave , I can relate to how you think your way through a process . If I become annoying with comments just tell me to back off .

I have not had good luck with the nut and washer type traps that you show for the shower . They tend to loosen with vibration . If you want the flexibility of taking apart without cutting a fernco fitting works better . I also don't think it's a good idea to reduce down for a shower . I didn't read any mention of a vent for the grey tank .

With the shower drain and top of the grey tank being so close in elevation I will be interested to hear if there is any back up into the shower driving with a full grey tank . I have a similar situation and have not come to a resolve yet .

Fernco Trap: Using one of these instead of the nut and plastic washer still leaves a nut and washer for the downstream connection to the plumbing, what do they call that? A wall adapter? At the residential rough-in location? How do you deal with that? One idea I'm having is to NOT use a Fernco Trap, but instead, a glued trap that uses a Fernco coupler at both up and downstream connections, eliminating all nuts and washer.

Reducing down to 1.25": I appreciate those comments, but one thought is - that reduction might not matter TOO much in a short distance with a minimal water use flow, but MIGHT aid in the "slosh back" with a full tank?

Slosh Back: Do you think the combo of both a trap (1.5" p-trap even a waterless trap as you've suggested too - which uses a flapper valve apparently) and an o-ring sealing tub/shower stopper might control this?

Grey Tank Vent: The tank is vented. It's downstream of the galley sink trap, so that should work well. The bath sink is also vented, but upstream of the bath sink trap so that will aid the basin, but not other fixtures. Do you think the first vent described will aid the shower drain? I'm thinking yes, but maybe haven't thought it through fully.

Minimal Drain Elevation: There is 2.75" between the bottom inside surfaces of the shower drain elbow and the tank entry fitting. That is the distance from inside pipe bottom to inside pipe bottom. Do you think a p-trap will cause a drain problem due to its nature (drainage dropping below the entry into the tank) and a waterless might work better? I've wondered about the benefits between the two styles for the two issues of 1-minimal elevation and 2-slosh back. One the one hand, slosh back may be better controlled with water in a p-trap and o-ring at the drain stopper, due to the waterless trap flapper valve bouncing while under way. But if it allows seepage past it, the o-ring may catch that portion, and on the next turn/stop/acceleration the water will drain back down through the flapper. But on steep down hills will it push past both? Of course at those times most of the waste water weight will bypass a slosh back tendency just due to the position of the shower drain entry into the back portion of the tank.

Thanks for any thoughts you have on this.

Dave , I posted your picture to use as reference , I'm not very good at computer wizardry as you can tell .

My thought on the shower drain was to come out of the shower fitting with a straight tail piece and connect a fernco 1-1/2" trap . At the tank end come out with a stub pipe and connect a fernco ell . Then make up a pipe with an ell on one end to connect to the trap ( making it a P shape trap ). That would make all the connections with fernco's , no nuts and washers , and easy to disassemble . You mention using 1-1/4" drain because of low water usage and this could very well be , but since the shower drain is 1-1/2 and the tank is 1-1/2 , why not keep it all one size . I don't think it will affect the sloshing one way or the other .

If you have one vent path for the grey tank that should be sufficient , no need for multiples .

The sloshing problem is only when underway . When set up level and stationary all the sloping of pipes and elevations of drains and tanks makes sense . Once moving over uneven roads , up and down and side to side , all of that is out the window . Since I don't have my shower drain connected to my grey tank as yet , it has not been a problem . More and more I have been thinking of using a plumbers test plug in the shower drain when traveling , they come in a number of sizes . have not tried the waterless type trap so don't know how good it will work , especially under mobile conditions . You could be the first in your neighborhood .:D My general philosophy is anything with moving parts is more prone to failure .

Hope this helped more than hindered .
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Apr 27, 2015
I hadn't even considered a straight down tailpiece, as I didn't think there was room to clear the tank. I just checked and there is, but barely! A single!

Also, I didn't know the that a kitchen sink tailpiece and a shower drain were the same size and thread, but they are! Two runners on!

And getting rid of the tub drain elbow frees up extra length for the drain pipe and trap also allowing drain pipe alignment by rotating the trap slightly. Bases loaded!

Agreed, using a water p-trap instead of a moving part (flapper valve in the waterless) removes potential mechanical failure. Home Run!

I think that may well do it, and solves my other issue of how much of a notch to cut out of the shower pan support board. Nada, none. Just wide enough for the flange nut. Now where to find a flange nut? Oh there's one, right on the bench, the tub elbow!

In these pictures there is a combination of parts between a kitchen sink system and a tub drain.

Here you see the brass tub drain, and directly behind it is the tub underside flange nut elbow (as opposed to using its official name because I don't know what it is). The tub drain can thread onto the straight tailpiece to the left, using the brass nut and flat tailpiece plastic washer. (Just can't seem to get away from these washers in SOME places.) But that will seal the drain to the tailpiece.

Here it is assembled. And note the elbow behind, I'll have to cut the elbow off, retaining enough flat flange and thread to draw the rubber washer up against the underside of the shower pan, using plumber's putty on the top surface under the brass drain edge. That'll seal the drain to the pan.

Here you see the o-ring feature of the tub/shower drain. Movable with a finger or toe. ticki2 this sort of drain stopper might work in your scenario as well, and I think it will also aid greatly in the slosh back thing.

The Ferco coupler was in the pictures to show its wall thickness - 1/4". It is that 1/4" I took into account to verify just now, a straight down tailpiece would indeed fit - and I believe a Fernco trap is slightly thinner walled, if my eyes are remembering correctly from my last several visits to the store.

Regarding the 1.25" reduction thing. I can't even remember now if I was trying to better use the short available distance by reducing (smaller trap radius?) or if I was just staging with parts on hand. But it does me good to hear you ALSO don't think it would help appreciably on slosh back, and there's one thing for darn certain, the reduction LOOKS stupid and that's not good in anybody's book :)

Between the p-trap and the drain seal, maybe we'll control slosh back. We'll keep fingers crossed.

Thanks for the valued input ticki2.
Dave_Pete
Explorer II
Apr 28, 2015
It's hard to know before starting work, just which topics and categories to start and continue posting in. Here in "Bathroom Remodel", today's post - and yesterday's - could just as easily have gone under "Waste Water".

As big as "Galley and Greatroom" has gotten, I could've had an "Appliances" category. But I suppose a multi-thread project like this is just going to create such question. Hopefully, those researching work in the future will be able to locate what they might need.

I've been doing work on the front cab-over structure, and that post is coming before long, but I wanted to take yesterday's unplanned shower drain work a little further - so I got onto that as well.

I had all my parts to accomplish what ticki2 had helped me resolve yesterday, except the flange nut for securing the tub/shower drain piece. So I took what I did have over to the table saw.

Step A.

Step B.

Step C. Rounded excess on the bench sander disc.

I soon realized the flange nut couldn't have that kind of height, so I made some close measurements and cut it down further, still leaving enough thread, but I wouldn't want to go smaller. Then I used the sanding disc to make a hex for the water-pump pliers to grasp.

I don't know for certain, but I expect I could have found something like this at the store. However, the way things are packaged these days it probably would have come in a kit with multiple un-needed parts, I had no use now for this original piece, and there's a 90%+ chance that the store on THIS side of town would not have had it, and would still be playing classic disco music, so it would have been a several hour event running to the other side of town, after making the first stop and getting irritated.

Knowing what I learned yesterday, I could finally cut the shower pan support board in a 4.25" hole instead of some sort of notch to accommodate the tub plumbing elbow I had now shaped into a nut.

These are the players.

Test fitting the pieces proved the rubber washer too thick, so I used the foam washer. But the foam (or a cheaper, thinner rubber washer as provided typically) is much weaker than is the rubber.

With a plumber's putty "rope" I attached the drain, washer and flange nut.

The foam washer started to distort, and I'm not certain I like that so it may still be re-worked. I might be able to further shorten the flange nut and use the rubber washer.

Then came the leak test. It passed.

With the shower support board back in place you can see how close the tank edge is, and why I hadn't considered a straight down tailpiece until now.

But a close inspection proves otherwise. Like I said yesterday, there is room, but just barely.

Then with the shower pan in place.

And this shot shows the reality of the small distances I'm working with.

Until I get the Fernco trap and the other fittings I won't know how long to make the tailpiece. I made a cut to a temporary 4" length for the photo op.

There's only 1/4" between the tank and the tailpiece. But that's all we need.
ticki2
Explorer
Apr 28, 2015
Had to smile when I saw that homemade basin nut , that's something I would do .

Just a tip . Mobile home plumbing fittings are usually the same as camper fittings . Some hardware stores carry them. Here is something that might work even better for your tail piece , I think if you unscrew the vent the threads will be the same as your drain fitting so you wind up with a tail piece and nut all in one .

http://mobilehomepartsstore.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=135950&Category_Code=MP

Question , does the stopper for the drain screw in or push in ?