2016 Ford Superduty Looks Hot!

I'm not a metallurgist or a chemical engineer....but in watching those series of pictures as the fire evolves in the new Ford pickup, does cause me concern.

There is definitely what appears to be an explosion... showers of white sparks spraying around the middle frame, of the pictures series.

I don't know if a truck of regular construction (non aluminum-alloy body) would burn as fiercely as this truck did.

I would be interested in knowing if this is the case. It does make me wonder if the aluminum alloy mix used in this prototype truck is more of a fire concern, than typical material (no aluminum-alloy) used in other trucks.

Again, I don't know, but I would certainly want to know. I think it would be valuable for Ford, to provide a public report, developed and presented by an independent engineering firm.

If the burn that took place in the prototype is no different than what would happen in non aluminum alloy vehicles...then that would be important consumer info.

If not.....

Just MO.

Part of any development program in developing vehicles....is thorough testing of prototypes...to see if there are any issues, that needed to be corrected, before regular production.

I'm assuming that this is the process Ford will follow.

BenK wrote:
These comments are my 'guesses' as to what 'most likely' took place
Again, as turtle pointed out, aluminum as most know it is stable and
does NOT burn easily. It will if the right circumstances are in place

I'm not a chemistry wizard, just a dumb fireman. It's my dumb fireman's guess that the explosive shower of sparks was caused by SRS components cooking off like Turtle thought, or possibly magnesium components. Magnesium burns spectacularly, as any firefighter who's attempted to extinguish a burning old-style VW engine block will attest.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
No crashed UFO's. No alien autopsy. None of that

Oh, come on Turtle, this was starting to get interesting.

BenK wrote:
During the initial phases of the fire...the aluminum body continued to
be stable as Turtle points out...it is just before this image that the
'chemistry' took place

Sorry Ben, no "chemistry" took place. No cover up. No Government conspiracy. No crashed UFO's. No alien autopsy. None of that. :B

Just a plain old mechanical pressure explosion.

This is what happened right before the picture was taken. Or something just like this. There are a lot of things under pressure in a modern automobile. Even explosive devices. (Tough to be a fire fighter now days. My hat is off to you guys for doing a very dangerous job)

Have several hundred lbs of molten aluminum hanging around and add something full of pressure blowing up, and take the picture just at the right time, (more than likely a frame taken from a video)and you get the picture you posted.

Nothing more, nothing less. :)

I would say the pictures of the Ram are correct!
You see foot prints on both sides of the truck and if you look closer you can see two shovels on the other side of the truck.
A shadow to the right must be the guy taking pictures?
Good Luck and Drive safe!

Turtle...am in complete agreement, as usual...but...there are more points
of information

First...I've never been in an auto on fire...seen many and a few of my
buddies. Never have I seen one burn down to the ground like this one.
Even the aluminum 2 seaters

Aluminum is highly reactive and one of the most of the metals category
Most think very stable as it is seemingly impervious to the stuff that
eats unprotected steel...but that is the operative...'unprotected'. As
aluminum will naturally form a protective coating in seconds after it
is scratched to remove that oxide coating. That oxide coating is also
known by the man made 'anodized' coating. Alu oxide is the second
hardest material known to mankind. First is diamond and third is jadeite

Toss in whatever alloy this vehicle's body is made from...and...the
chemistry of the 'other' stuff. Both going on during this event and the
on going. 'On going' is something been noodling a bit ever since this
series of threads on this one event.

Must be an alloy, as pure aluminum is soft. Most likely in the 6000 series

Aluminum is highly reactive. Thermite, rocket fuel and your fireworks
are just a few examples.

Back to Turtles point...the basic body of this prototype is stable.
As it has both the natural oxide coating and paint

And here is the 'but' there are other potential attributes at play...

During the initial phases of the fire...the aluminum body continued to
be stable as Turtle points out...it is just before this image that the
'chemistry' took place



These comments are my 'guesses' as to what 'most likely' took place
Again, as turtle pointed out, aluminum as most know it is stable and
does NOT burn easily. It will if the right circumstances are in place

First, the alu oxide must be removed. In whole or in part. In part...
enough to get the fire/explosion going

Everyone admits that alu powder suspended in air and/or mixed with
the right components, in the right everything (size, suspension, etc)
will explode...but...let's take a look at the why of that

This happens in a flash...the powder particles get hot enough to remove
the alu oxide coating

Now that exposes the 'highly' reactive alu to the stuff that gets it
going...mainly oxygen

Once those powder particles glow and ignite...they cause nearby particles
to like wise to become a cascading event, but in a flash

Mix in other components that help catalyze the event to make it
burn or explode

The issue that Turtle points out is that a hunk of alu will not do
this. The amount of heat is very high and that there needs to be other
materials to catalyze that event

Once the alu oxide coating is gone...now all it needs are high heat and
the diesel fire provides that

Next it will need the catalyzing components/materials. Acid is one of
the main ones. Other metals too (copper is one). Even water (H2O) and
that is where much of the freed oxygen comes from.

Also think HOATs is a component in this. The 'A' is acid and its job
is to etch away the metal coatings to expose bare metal to the 'O'
(organics) to coat & create the protective coating

'Etched' metal floating in the coolant...hmmm...depending on the makeup
of that brew...could become another catalyst that sprays it all over
after the fire consumes enough of the hoses...

Toss in potential electrical arcing and it's temp in the neighborhood
of the Sun....in addition to the brew of stuff going on under the hood

Once aluminum gets to that point...it is self fueling & propagating
as long as the other catalysts are available

Too much to write and forgot most of this stuff. So looked some up and
here are some links for those who find this stuff interesting...I do
and do read this stuff

Reactive Chemicals

Water Reactives
Water reactive materials can react violently or vigorously in contact with water, wet surfaces, or even the moisture in the air. These chemicals may react to give off a flammable gas (such as hydrogen) or a toxic gas, (such as phosgene) or spontaneously burn or explode. Water is obviously NOT a good choice for putting out fires caused by water reactive chemicals. A class D fire extinguisher is designed to be used to fight fires caused by certain water reactive chemicals.

Examples:

Alkali metals (Sodium metal, lithium metal)
Anhydrides (acetic anhydrides)
Carbides (calcium carbide)
Halides (Acetyl chloride, titanium chloride, stannous chloride)
Hydrides (sodium hydride)
Organometallics (tetramethyl aluminum)
oxides (sodium oxides)
Peroxides (sodium peroxide)
Phosphides (aluminum phosphide)
and others (chlorosulfonic acid, aluminum tribromide).

http://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/0063.pdf

http://www.ehs.pitt.edu/assets/docs/combustible-metals.pdf

Aluminum (Al): Aluminum is used both as a commercially pure metal and as an alloy.

In finely divided powder or dust form, aluminum and its alloys are combustible in air and
present a serious combustion explosion hazard. Aluminum will react violently with many
chemicals. Aluminum particles and smaller turnings will react with water to form hydrogen
gas which is highly flammable and explosive in favorable concentrations.

The rapid vaporization of water in contact with molten aluminum can
result in rapid phase transformation explosions. Halogenated
extinguishing agents should not be used.

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/57

http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/chemicals/reactive/react.html

http://www.chem.purdue.edu/chemsafety/equip/alrefdatasheet.htm
This one indicative of some of the research into HOW2 produce hydrogen
for hydrogen fuels for automotive...not going to work on a mass scale...

rjstractor wrote:

BigToe wrote:
The question is, as older retirees, will we be able to get out in time? As younger vacationers with our little children all buckled up in car seats in the back, will we be able to unstrap the morass of harnesses in time to get them out in time?

Wow, a PROTOTYPE truck burns up and suddenly we have a horror/panic segment for 60 minutes? To answer your question, the fire load in an interior car fire is, of course, the plastic trim, upholstery, floor mats and everything else inside the car or truck. The aluminum body is not part of the fire load although it will melt. Whether you can get them out on time depends entirely on how fast you move, not what the car or truck body is made of.

LOL, I've only been in one car fire in my life TG, but being around race cars for a long time I have seen dozens of fires.

Let me tell you; fire is a BIG motivator in getting out of a car. I have seen big fat guys move at the speed of light when there is flame involved. There is something about fire that just gets people moving! :B

BigToe wrote:
The question is, as older retirees, will we be able to get out in time? As younger vacationers with our little children all buckled up in car seats in the back, will we be able to unstrap the morass of harnesses in time to get them out in time?

Wow, a PROTOTYPE truck burns up and suddenly we have a horror/panic segment for 60 minutes? To answer your question, the fire load in an interior car fire is, of course, the plastic trim, upholstery, floor mats and everything else inside the car or truck. The aluminum body is not part of the fire load although it will melt. Whether you can get them out on time depends entirely on how fast you move, not what the car or truck body is made of.

^^Good post^^
Benk = Are you Cliff Claven of "Cheers" fame? haha....
:-)

BenK wrote:
Disagree Turtle (not often)...all metals will burn

Repeat that aluminum dust is part of solid rocket fuel. Alu dust is also expolsive.

Anyone look up Thermite? Iron powder and alu powder.

Aluminum burns at around 7,000F. Changes from solid to liquid to vapor at that
point will burn. The alu is the fuel in solid rocket fuel and the
oxidizer is many times rubber dust mixed and suspended in some sort
of binder (think epoxy)

Gasoline and Diesel does NOT get that hot and why said earlier that there has to
be some catalyst in the flames

Must be something like magnesium or some such...then the coolant comes into
play. This kind of metal fire will be so hot and active, that it will split the
water molecules to become hydrogen gas (two) and oxygen gas (one) of the H2O

Think alloy and how lead/tin has a higher melting point, but mix them into an
alloy (solder) it will have a much lower melting point...and burn temp

Toss in electrical contribution and can see how it ignites and sustains. An arc
welder's temp is up there to burn aluminum/magnesium/steel/etc

Reason it doesn't burn with a welder...is that a whole lot of the
surface area needs to at that min temp. Doesn't happen because of
the thermal wicking of the rest of the part

Once aluminum gets there in temp...it is pretty much self sustaining as long
as it has oxygen. Hose it with H2O and it likes that, as that is where or one
other source of oxygen (H2O)

I'm very familiar with aluminum. I use it in fireworks as a hobby. I use it on race cars and trailers. I have welded on it, heated it and pounded on it.

Lets be clear. The Ford truck in question is not made of powered aluminum. It's formed out of sheets just like the airplanes and race cars I worked on are made out of.

To quote a source:

Non-Flammable
As a non-flammable substance, aluminum is ideal for construction and transportation. It only burns when powdered or very thin and does not generate gases upon combustion.

Link to source.

If one wants to get technical, one can catch water on fire. :R For all practical purposes and for this discussion, sheet aluminum is not flammable. When heated, it just melts when hot enough. :)

Agreed?