Forum Discussion
Cummins12V98 wrote:
"Most of us on this forum know that the Powwrstroke is a better engine than the Cummins so our opinions are not affected by advertising."
HUH???
I think he mis spelled it. He meant Cummings! Lol- ^^^^ Forget the ratings for a minute and just recognize that an 8 mile run up a steep hill puts the truck at sustained power very quickly. Cummins is often the engine that performs worst in these real world tests. Then there is the exhaust brake issue .....Cummins has the strongest exhaust brake but with only 3 gears to choose from there is only 3 speeds at which it will hold back its maximum force. (2nd third and forth) The competition can choose from more like 6 different speeds. (2nd through 7th). People who understands gearing and pull heavy loads know how important this is.
4x4ord wrote:
Shiner if you were a GM guy I wouldn’t bother arguing with you but Ford and Ram have been one upping one another for years while GM seems to stay out of the numbers war. I haven't kept track but I think Ram has probably been last up the hill in more TFL Ike pulls than anyone and GM has probably taken the most first place wins ... yet GM often has the lowest ratings.
Yes, and Ford has been last up the hill even with the highest power ratings. Like in the 2018 test towing 28.5k on the same day. The 450 hp rated Powerstroke with a 6-speed was a second or two slower than the 385 hp Cummins with a 6-speed. With 65 more rated horsepower, you would think the Powerstroke would mop the floor with the Cummins with the same speed transmission, but they likely settled into roughly the same sustained horsepower numbers as the test went on which is how people use these trucks in the real world. Not short burst 0-60 runs which as you say is what you have your Civic for.
They have all been within 20 seconds of each other in recent tests done at the same day with the same speed trans which is considered the same in my book given traffic over 8 miles. Either that or the higher power rated truck got their power at the start of the Ike to get a good 30-60 and the engine started to settle to more sustained power ratings making it more even as the test when on. I would bet that instead of starting from an onramp at 30 mph, if they would start the test already on the highway at 60 mph utilizing sustained power figures like the real world people do when towing, then times between them would be even closer.
I will also point out that while Ram has been in this pissing match with Ford(which I have pointed out many times as pointless), Cummins not as much. I know Ram has(when I was at Cummins) and probably still does want Cummins tune and rate their engine at the highest power ratings possible even if it isn't sustained, but that is not how they do things. The ratings are J1995 meaning that the engine supplier(Cummins) has control over them, not the vehicle manufacturer.
I have no doubts that the Cummins ratings would be much higher if Ram had control over the tuning and ratings, but in my opinion that is deceitful in a truck meant to tow. I would not find it deceitful in a half ton though since that truck is not meant to tow most of the time, but that is just my opinion. Basically you have one that says we will tune and rate this for 400 hp because that what you will get under most conditions when using the vehicle as intended and another who says we will tune and rate this for 475 hp, but it will back down to more sustained numbers when used as intended.
Then you also have the factor of ambient temps and altitude. If you test one truck at 60F and another at 90F, then the truck at 60F will be able to sustain higher power numbers (at least 25-50hp) than the truck at 90F. Not only that, but colder temps allow for more horsepower in general due to denser air with more oxygen content so
it will make more power on top of being able to sustain more. So testing two trucks at much different temps is not really a good comparison either and anyone who knows how diesel engines work would know this. I bet that if you took a 2020 PSD with a 22k trailer and tested it up Ike in the Summer at 90F and then in the Winter at 50F, then you would get at least a 30 second to a minute time difference.ShinerBock wrote:
4x4ord wrote:
Company’s pay huge money to advertise because it works. If Ram can advertise best in class weights .... or “the pickup up with the Cummins engine producing more torque than any other pick up has ever produced” they can, in a way, make a claim that they are “best” and here are the numbers to prove it. Most of us on this forum know that the Powwrstroke is a better engine than the Cummins so our opinions are not affected by advertising.:)
But that is our point. It works because fanboys like to tout these numbers of their favorite brand even though they don't own the truck which. To these type of buyers and internet fanboys, highest power figures(even if they are not sustained) and tow ratings is what lifts their skirts to get them to buy X brand. Although I think the fanboys will buy a their brand regardless of whether these numbers are "best in class" or not.
Other types of buyers and fanboys of certain brands tend to focus on things like reliability, sustained power ratings, and ease of repair if needed. There are also other groups that may think something else like fuel efficiency or exhaust braking is more important above power ratings(sustained or not) and tow ratings due to how they use their trucks. What each considered is a better engine would be different amongst all types.
Then this may all change in 350/450/550 cab in chassis trucks since the Powerstroke is not the highest power ratings. In this class of trucks, the Cummins(360 hp) actually makes more horsepower than the Powerstroke(330 hp) which is mainly due to the emissions and ratings being more of a sustained ratings test rather than a short burst test of the pickups.
In my opinion, I believe that this is the reason why Ford posts short term power ratings in their pickup trucks because these kind of figures are important to the people that buy their trucks so they try to get the highest figures possible even though it is a little deceiving because you will not get these numbers when using the truck as intended. You would get them unloaded going stop light to stop light, but as you say, that is what your Civic is for so it is pointless in your truck. Hence the reason why loads tend to effect certain engines more than others. Some companies feel that tuning for sustained power ratings is a more honest even if it means that it isn't the highest.
Shiner if you were a GM guy I wouldn’t bother arguing with you but Ford and Ram have been one upping one another for years while GM seems to stay out of the numbers war. I haven't kept track but I think Ram has probably been last up the hill in more TFL Ike pulls than anyone and GM has probably taken the most first place wins ... yet GM often has the lowest ratings.Cummins12V98 wrote:
4x4ord wrote:
^^^ If I was to keep this one I would have had to change the tires soon. It’s not a whole lot more work to just replace the whole truck.
Big Baller!!!
I’m not a Big Baller. I’m just convinced that the cost of owning a truck changes very little whether I replace it every 2, 4, or 10 years. Depreciation plus appreciation is about 5k per year no matter how you slice it. Someone buying his last truck could do the math differently but if you’re going to replace what you own with new ... when and how often you do it is not going matter. However I can’t convince my wife of this .... she likes her car and will not let me trade it in.4x4ord wrote:
Company’s pay huge money to advertise because it works. If Ram can advertise best in class weights .... or “the pickup up with the Cummins engine producing more torque than any other pick up has ever produced” they can, in a way, make a claim that they are “best” and here are the numbers to prove it. Most of us on this forum know that the Powwrstroke is a better engine than the Cummins so our opinions are not affected by advertising.:)
But that is our point. It works because fanboys like to tout these numbers of their favorite brand even though they don't own the truck. To these type of buyers and internet fanboys, highest power figures(even if they are not sustained) and tow ratings is what lifts their skirts to get them to buy X brand. Although I think the fanboys will buy a their brand regardless of whether these numbers are "best in class" or not.
Other types of buyers and fanboys of certain brands tend to focus on things like reliability, sustained power ratings, and ease of repair if needed. There are also other groups that may think something else like fuel efficiency or exhaust braking is more important above power ratings(sustained or not) and tow ratings due to how they use their trucks. What each considers is a better engine would be different amongst all types.
Then this may all change in 350/450/550 cab in chassis trucks since the Powerstroke does not have the highest power ratings engine available. In this class of trucks, the Cummins(360 hp) actually makes more horsepower than the Powerstroke(330 hp) which is mainly due to the emissions and ratings being more of a sustained ratings test rather than a short burst test of the pickups.
In my opinion, I believe that this is the reason why Ford posts short term power ratings in their pickup trucks because these kind of figures are important to the people that buy their pickup trucks so they try to get the highest figures possible even though it is a little deceiving because you will not get these numbers when using the truck as intended. You would get them unloaded going stop light to stop light, but as you say that is what your Civic is for so it is pointless in your truck. Some companies feel that tuning for sustained power ratings is a more honest even if it means that it isn't the highest. Hence the reason why loads tend to effect certain engines more than others.- "Most of us on this forum know that the Powwrstroke is a better engine than the Cummins so our opinions are not affected by advertising."
HUH??? 4x4ord wrote:
^^^ If I was to keep this one I would have had to change the tires soon. It’s not a whole lot more work to just replace the whole truck.
Big Baller!!!spoon059 wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
I have noticed that you tend to say you aren't a fan boy or do not care about such things yet turn right around and say things like this or tout highest power and towing numbers of your favorite brand that you so happen to name yourself after.
Exactly. His chosen screen name is Ford. Specs don't matter to a brand loyal buyer, so why do the manufacturers spend so much time and money touting these ridiculous specs. If the new Ram could jump 50hp and 200 lb/ft torque and tow 7500 lbs more, that would be worth bragging about and showing off. To jump up *just* enough to be "king of the hill" for one model year is catering to fools, in my opinion.
I have ZERO brand loyalty. I've own a Ford truck, an Isuzu SUV, a Toyota truck and now a Ram truck. All that matters to me is a truck that meets/exceeds my needs at the best price possible. They have all been wonderful vehicles and served their purposes for exactly what I needed when I needed it. I'm not loyal to a company that has no loyalty to me.
Company’s pay huge money to advertise because it works. If Ram can advertise best in class weights .... or “the pickup up with the Cummins engine producing more torque than any other pick up has ever produced” they can, in a way, make a claim that they are “best” and here are the numbers to prove it. Most of us on this forum know that the Powwrstroke is a better engine than the Cummins so our opinions are not affected by advertising.:)- ^^^ If I was to keep this one I would have had to change the tires soon. It’s not a whole lot more work to just replace the whole truck.
