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themoreweexplor's avatar
themoreweexplor
Explorer
Aug 02, 2015

Alternative to an Airstream's quality and beautiful windows?

We've just started the RV shopping process, and we're leaning heavily toward airstreams. There are 2 things we LOVE about airstreams:

1) the build quality (especially cabinets)

2) the windows and how inviting the interior is.

Since we're still in the researching stage, are there any other TTs we should check out that have a similar build quality and huge windows in the bedroom? We're pretty smitten with airstream, but being a big ol' hunk of aluminum with little insulation, we worry about getting chilly in the winter.

We'll be living in it full time, towing it behind a diesel E350 Ford Econoline van. We'd like something in the 23-28 foot range. Ground clearance is a plus, storage for batteries and solar is a plus as well.

Is there anything else out there with a similar build quality and gorgeous wide-open windows in the bedroom like the AS?

126 Replies

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  • themoreweexplor's avatar
    themoreweexplor
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    I'll be towing with a big, stiff, 1-ton van, so that's definitely something to think about. I didn't realize you had to rig an AS (or any trailer for that matter) differently if you're towing with a stiff tow rig.
  • MM49's avatar
    MM49
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    69 Avion wrote:
    This is a fabulous discussion. Bt the way, I'm not the one that said you shouldn't tow an Airstream with a heavy duty pickup, an Airstream expert did. He also stated that too heavy of WDH bars will harm the Airstream trailer.
    Here is the quote, "Early frame failures are usually due to grossly out of balance running gear, or, towing with a super heavy duty tow vehicle and an excessively rated hitch bars, or a combination of those."

    This particular discussion came about when I mentioned frame issues. I was called out to prove it. So I did with plenty of examples.

    Another example:
    http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/frame-failure-22-foot-international-48105.htm

    It is nice to finally see someone admit that there were problems with certain models. The above example is a 22' model that was only 6 years old at the time of discovering the failure. The engineering didn't change on this model except for weight distribution with the layout of the traier. Think about it for a moment, (without the emotions) this trailer is a tandem axle that is only 22' long. The frame design is basically the same as most of the others, except shorter. Longer frames with more overhang will have more stress, especially if the shell is seperated from the frame. The issue is that the frame problems aren't just on the 22' models.

    I must yield to folks here with more experience than me. I've only been building equipment trailers, on and off, for over 40 years. I have experience with many trailers, but I must admit, all the trailers I build had to support themselves. Understanding the semi-monocoque system, any serious failure in the connection between the frame and shell WILL cause an eventual frame failure.

    Now to the axles that were mentioned above. Some folks really like the rubber torsion axles. I have used many of them over the years. They are great for a few reasons. One, they are independent. Two, they actually help support the structure as they become part of the structure. Three, they give a good ride. Four, they are cheaper to install since you don't have to deal with all the shackle brakets. If Airstream used the FlexiRide type, you could actually change the torsion angle by removing one bolt from the splines.

    Now for the negative. The rubber hardens in about 20 years or so depending on the temperature. The axles don't have an "equalizer" so when you go over a large bump (usually over 6"+) the first axle will have all the weight of the trailer (that isn't on the tongue) on one axle, then the second axle. So, if you have an 8000# trailer with 1000# on the tongue, equipped with two 4000# axles, each 4000# rated axle will have 7000# on it as it goes over that sharp bump. Combine that with a marginal frame and guess what happens over time?
    A leaf spring axle won't do that since it has an equalizer. There was a system that Dexter made with a split leaf spring axle that gave you an independent suspension and the equalizer, but it takes more time to build and a heavy frame to support the suspension. Another issue is some rubber torsion manufacturers will not recommend them for triple axle configurations because the lateral stress can pull the torsion arms out of the axle tube.

    It might be a little unfair to blame a poorly designed torsion bar WDH hitch on optimized frame design. I for one think that the basic adjustment instructions for torsion bars are all wrong for today’s heavy duty trucks. You should only be transferring a portion of the TW weight forward. The HD trucks are F/R out of balance and they benefit from a substantial TW on the rear axle. The TW left after loading the rear truck suspension is the only amount that should be equalized. This would require much smaller torsion bars with less damage to trailer frames and suspensions.
    There is not a chance that the public will ever understand this. I was at a large campground this week end and 9 out of 10 RV’s were set up incorrectly. The owners are in ignorant bliss and this will not change.
    MM49

    Like I said earlier, make an informed decision.
  • 69_Avion's avatar
    69_Avion
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    This is a fabulous discussion. Bt the way, I'm not the one that said you shouldn't tow an Airstream with a heavy duty pickup, an Airstream expert did. He also stated that too heavy of WDH bars will harm the Airstream trailer.
    Here is the quote, "Early frame failures are usually due to grossly out of balance running gear, or, towing with a super heavy duty tow vehicle and an excessively rated hitch bars, or a combination of those."

    This particular discussion came about when I mentioned frame issues. I was called out to prove it. So I did with plenty of examples.

    Another example:
    http://www.airforums.com/forums/f36/frame-failure-22-foot-international-48105.htm

    It is nice to finally see someone admit that there were problems with certain models. The above example is a 22' model that was only 6 years old at the time of discovering the failure. The engineering didn't change on this model except for weight distribution with the layout of the traier. Think about it for a moment, (without the emotions) this trailer is a tandem axle that is only 22' long. The frame design is basically the same as most of the others, except shorter. Longer frames with more overhang will have more stress, especially if the shell is seperated from the frame. The issue is that the frame problems aren't just on the 22' models.

    I must yield to folks here with more experience than me. I've only been building equipment trailers, on and off, for over 40 years. I have experience with many trailers, but I must admit, all the trailers I build had to support themselves. Understanding the semi-monocoque system, any serious failure in the connection between the frame and shell WILL cause an eventual frame failure.

    Now to the axles that were mentioned above. Some folks really like the rubber torsion axles. I have used many of them over the years. They are great for a few reasons. One, they are independent. Two, they actually help support the structure as they become part of the structure. Three, they give a good ride. Four, they are cheaper to install since you don't have to deal with all the shackle brakets. If Airstream used the FlexiRide type, you could actually change the torsion angle by removing one bolt from the splines.

    Now for the negative. The rubber hardens in about 20 years or so depending on the temperature. The axles don't have an "equalizer" so when you go over a large bump (usually over 6"+) the first axle will have all the weight of the trailer (that isn't on the tongue) on one axle, then the second axle. So, if you have an 8000# trailer with 1000# on the tongue, equipped with two 4000# axles, each 4000# rated axle will have 7000# on it as it goes over that sharp bump. Combine that with a marginal frame and guess what happens over time?
    A leaf spring axle won't do that since it has an equalizer. There was a system that Dexter made with a split leaf spring axle that gave you an independent suspension and the equalizer, but it takes more time to build and a heavy frame to support the suspension. Another issue is some rubber torsion manufacturers will not recommend them for triple axle configurations because the lateral stress can pull the torsion arms out of the axle tube.

    Like I said earlier, make an informed decision.
  • APT's avatar
    APT
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    Danattherock wrote:
    We work for a living, this won't be an easy expense, and we will try to buy slightly used if possible. We look at it in an investment in our kids future. They will see the entire country in it. Weekend trips in the nearby Smokies and a 2-3 week cross country 'Chevy Chase' trip each summer. Hah.


    I just want to say that quote is something I would say to non RV campers as well as thousands of other RV owners. Many white box RV owners do exactly what you aspire to do, make memories with their families all across this country.

    I have very limited personal experience with Airstreams, just met some nice owners staying next to us one trip. If you can afford it and understand the compromises vs. white box RVs, enjoy.
  • themoreweexplor's avatar
    themoreweexplor
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    Lots of good discussion here. I'm learning a lot and I really appreciate everyone's input.

    It's great that we have so many options today. There's bound to be something for everyone. In fact, there are so many options that it's often overwhelming. This thread has some great info in it.
  • aftermath's avatar
    aftermath
    Explorer III
    Aug 05, 2015
    69, sorry to see you get your bp up. I am an owner and I read the Airstream forum quite closely. I will agree with some of the statements you made regarding frames but you have painted with a broad brush making it sound like all Airstreams will fall apart.

    Towing with a 3/4 ton. There are many who do this and some even use heavier TVs. Hitching an Airstream is important and care must be taken to match the truck to the trailer. A stiffly sprung truck with a heavy duty hitch can shake the trailer and cause problems. This is something that has happened but it is certainly not the norm. You can read the forum and glean that information for yourself. Don't quote the single case and generalize it. There is an ongoing debate about using a half ton is a bad idea and many say you should move up to a 3/4ton.

    Weak frames? Yes the frame is weak but an Airstream is not built like a typical white box. The strength comes from the construction similar to an airplane fuselage that you described. The biggest problem with Airstreams is when an owner wants to build a platform on the back to carry their generators and ice boxes. The "frame" will simply not carry the weight. Your white box is simply that. A big box built on a sturdy frame. Have you ever seen the aftermath of a box trailer that has rolled? Small pieces everywhere. I have seen an Airstream just minutes after it rolled and what I saw was a very dented up can on its side. No bits of wood, insulation or other debris visible.

    Rusting out? Well, like all trailers you need to maintain them and an Airstream will leak if you neglect the roof. When this happens the water makes its way to the floor and serious damage can occur. Most of the cases regarding rusted outriggers are in conjunction to folks rebuilding a trailer that is 30 to 50 years old. I know of two cases where friends had white boxes that leaked and the rot set in to the roof structure and the walls. Why? They did not maintain their trailers like they should. It can happen to all brands.

    Over the years there have been some bad designs, the latest were the 23 or 22 footers in the early 2000s. They changed the layout and something went wrong with the weight distribution as I recall. Earlier, in the 80's they built a trailer with a rear bath that created a similar weight problem. Yes, these were mistakes but again, don't tell people that all Airstreams have poor floors, can't be towed with a 3/4 ton or any other nonsense by citing rare cases as common experiences.

    They are certainly not perfect. Show me a brand that is.
  • jmtandem's avatar
    jmtandem
    Explorer II
    Aug 05, 2015
    The whole idea of these forums is to share experience so that folks can make informed decisions.


    I don't really have a problem helping others make informed decisions. Being negative and not mentioning the positives is not helping people make informed decisions, only providing half the story. There is nothing wrong anywhere with using a three quarter ton or one ton truck to haul an Airstream. It is done all the time. The issue is certain models of weight distribution hitches that can damage the tongues of trailers. That problem is not an Airstream problem, it is a dealer selling the hitch problem and then the customer putting too much tension on the spring bars and possible separation at the front from the frame/body integrity. The Airstream magazine went into detail a few years ago over several issues on how to select the correct hitch regardless if the truck is a half ton or a one ton dually without resulting damage. In the forums this was debated and discussed at length with one southern California dealer that repairs this kind of damage offering solutions to the too much hitch spring bar problem. The stouter the van or truck, the less spring bar tension or even spring bar rating is needed. The solution was and is really simple. It is all in the magazine.

    I recently recall an extensive amount of fourm verbage concerning Lippert frames on RV's, mostly fifth wheels. And approximately 75 percent of all RV fifth wheel and travel trailer frames are made by Lippert. Airstream and Arctic Fox are two exceptions (Arctic Fox did use Lippert for some of their travel trailer frames in the past). Cabinets and floors and walls coming apart inside due to poorly designed or built Lippert frames, poor welding, etc. Lance had axle issues with their first run of travel trailers, they were too weak. Weekend Warrior manufactured some toy haulers with frames insufficently strong resulting in wall damage. Dozens of pages in these forums were devoted to the WW issues. So, whose product would you suggest would be the best for the OP? Who makes something perfect? If you really want to help the OP suggest a product that will work for them that has never had issues. Be positive not negative. Don't tell them what not to get; tell them what to get.

    Airstreams have torsion axles, most other RV's don't. In almost all ways they are superior to springs and shackles in how they tow. Some models come with electric/hydraulic brakes, most travel trailers don't. Compare vastly superior stopping distances next time you try to inform a potential Airstream customer about the deficiencies. None have rubber roofs to wear out before the payments are made. None have filon sides to possibly delaminate. All tow better due to the rounded shape than most box trailers and get better fuel mileage. The interiors are elegantly understated, the outsides do not have overstated goofy graphics that go out of style next year. Most RV parks and campgrounds that have a ten year rule ignore it for Airstreams. Nobody knows how old they are anyway except a sharp knowledgable AS owner. If you are going to share information about a product to a potential customer to inform them, inform them on the good attributes as well.
  • 69_Avion's avatar
    69_Avion
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    Lets get back to the thread. The OP wanted alternatives. I just mentioned the issues with the airstream frames. It is nothing new. It is a fact. The whole idea of these forums is to share experience so that folks can make informed decisions. Getting "called out" to provide proof for mentioning the "well known" facts is not what these forums are for. I provided a link with many examples on the AirForum website. People should be able to enjoy what they own. Not telling the truth and letting the uninformed folks spend thousands of dollars without realizing what may happen in the future isn't very helpful. I suggest folks go to the AirForums and look at the issues "before" they make a purchase. Doing the research after a person makes the purchase isn't very helpful. In this thread, a person wants to tow an Airstream with what is probably a heavy duty van. I think most of us will agree that a heavy duty van will have a comparable suspension to a 3/4 ton pickup. Check AirForums and see the results.

    Let me give a little more info for those who are interested and want to make an informed purchase. Wally built what they like to call Semi Monocoque trailers. They use the shell as part of the structure. In the old days, when Airstream went all over the world, the trailers were light and agile. They were being pulled by vehicles with much less horsepower than today. Airstream, over time, made them larger with many more options which made them much heavier. The frames are not strong enough, without the shell, to support the weight of the trailer. The frame has the floor conected to it and the shell is connected to the wood floor. When water intrusion occurs, the floor rots, the shell seperates from the floor which is seperated from the frame, therefore leaving the frame weak. Some of the frame failures have nothing to do with "seperation", but just weak frames. When an Airstream expert tells you that you can't pull an Airstream with a heavy tow vehicle like a 3/4 ton truck, without doing damage to the trailer, then you may wonder what the problem is. Do your really think an Airstream salesman is going to tell a customer that their heavy duty pickup, or van, won't work with an Airstream? Probably not. That info won't be shared until there is a problem, years later.

    If folks don't want to take the time to review documented issues, many with pictures, on the AirForums website, that is fine. But don't blame the messenger who is trying to help the OP make an informed decision.

    This isn't an Airstream vs. the other silver trailers of which none are made anymore. This is an issue of problems with the design of using a weak frame and relying on everything being perfect, including the shell staying attached to the floor, for them to last. The other manufacturers of the larger silver trailers are all gone or quit making the silver trailers because of cost. I can't recall any of these "other" manufacturers relying on the semi monocoque design for their frames on the large trailers. Seeing any one of these other trailers, of which all of them are old by now, having frame issues is unheard of. If someone knows of a failure, please share it with us.
  • jmtandem's avatar
    jmtandem
    Explorer II
    Aug 05, 2015
    You obviously didn't read AirForums, did you?

    You are right, I shouldn't have mentioned all the bad frames from the 2003-2004 era, that failed. Many of these failures (documented on AirForums) happened several years ago. After all, an $80,000 trailer shouldn't be expected to last a full decade.

    I won't mention the posts, on AirForum, about recommendations that the trailers be towed with empty tanks, because of frame sag.

    I certainly won't mention the fact that many of their frames used formed "C" channel, not structural channel and they are very thin. That is the reason rust affects them much faster, not that other trailer trailer frames don't rust. If you would have read AirForums, you would have known that.

    You just can't deal with facts, can you?

    I really like people that can't accept the truth, and turn to name calling.

    Please enjoy your new Airstream.


    69,

    The facts speak for themselves. Avion is gone. The were a direct competor to Airstream at one time. They were well made and heavy. They are gone, Airstream is still here. Every manufacturer of RV's going back to the mid 1930's is gone except Airstream and one other. Nothing is perfect. Airstream has outlasted recessions and wars. They have more history than most (all) other travel trailer manufacturers, survived mutiple owners (including a food processing manufacturer for a time), and today sell more than ever and sell every one they make. There are plenty of people that are willing to pay the entry fee for the product. Airstream has made basically the same iconic trailer for eighty plus years, far longer than all but one other RV manufacturer has lasted. At one time the direct competition, Avion, was owned by the Fortune 500 number one company, yet they are gone. They had the money and dealer network to build a competitive product yet they are gone. Airstream is still here. Longevity speaks for itself.

    Airstream has had some issues to be sure but a couple years of issues spread over 80 years of production is not a major 'long lasting and persistent will be with you forever' problem as to the overall product. Every manufacturer has issues. So what?

    If the OP wants an Airstream then acquire one. If they want lots of interior space then get the PanAmerica model, triple axle, 11,000 gross, and 34 feet long. It will be all they will ever want or need in an Airstream.

    Airstream was never sold as an RV or as a Travel Trailer. They were always sold as freedom to travel, freedom from motels/hotels, freedom to explore the world, etc. Never sold as an product, but rather an adventure tool. Wally Byam led caravan tours with multiple dozens of enthusiasts in their own Airstreams around parts of the world including Africa from bottom to top by putting Airstreams on ships, then over land mostly dirt unimproved roads, and back on ships months later for home. I can't think that a piece of junk with a bad frame could ever make that kind of a trip yet all did and many times. He was a master genius for selling freedom and adventure wrapped up in an aluminum tube. And he lived that life through Airstream. They never would have lasted 80 years if they fell apart on multiple thousand miles of dirt roads, across deserts, through mud bogs, crossing shallow rivers, etc. So maybe we could all just be happy for the OP and help them find the Airstream trailer they want or the alternative they are asking might also work without the unnecessary bashing of a product regardless if it is Airstream, Arctic Fox, Avion, Bigfoot, or any other manufacturer. Whatever happened to being happy for somebody wanting to get into RVing and supportive of their choices??

    As to AirForums that you cited, there are many many happy people with their Airstream some owning the same one for years and years, some very vintage models still doing what they were doing when new and others discussing the next one they will acquire. Something like 65-70 percent of all Airstreams ever built are still in use. Yea, they last longer than the payments. Sure, a few had issues and some might have moved on to another product, but for the most part Airstream owners are happy owners of a slice of America that still speaks to the freedom to travel and explore.
  • irishtom29's avatar
    irishtom29
    Explorer
    Aug 05, 2015
    djsamuel wrote:
    Just throwing this out there since it is aluminum construction:

    Camplite 28BHS


    Even the frame, floor and cabinets are aluminum, and with azdel paneling. No wood anywhere. Very cool trailers, kind'a Spartan, but very cool. IMO these relegate Airstream to a mere styling exercise.

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