Forum Discussion

Anon_Tech's avatar
Anon_Tech
Explorer
Mar 31, 2022

Black Series fire hazard

I'm an RV service technician, I won't say where because I'm making these posts on my own and am not representing them in anyway.

I've discovered a very serious electrical issue in quite a few Black Series units. No link between models or years, I've seen them in '19, '20, '21, and 2022, and models like HQ15, HQ17, HQ19, and HQ21's.

All of the unit's I've looked at have main AC distribution panels that are wildly out of code and extremely dangerous. Most of them have the wires entering loosely through a roughly cut hole in the box, with the wires rubbing the metal and damaging the insulation. I've seen some with breakers rated for more than triple what the trailer is rated for. Some don't have proper ground bars or lugs. Some even have nonsensical and dangerous connections in the box. I could get picky with NEC and find a good dozen violations in them.

All of the issues I have found are extremely dangerous. I've seen ground wires melting, main supply wires with damaged insulation and exposed conductors, loose wires, outlets with no boxes, and plenty of other things.

These all pose a very serious risk of fire, and could easily cause damage, injury, or death. The manufacturer has been made aware of these issues but is doing nothing to alert customers of the danger here. I've filed a few individual complaints with the NHTSA, but it will take more than a handful of complaints for them to investigate the matter.

If these problems are as widespread as they appear then a national recall needs to be issued. I'd like to ask all owners to inspect their units. With the trailer unplugged from shore power, you can remove the 2 or 4 screws securing the cover to the breaker box. If you see these issues please post photos here along with the trailer VIN. I'd also strongly suggest you file a complaint with the NHTSA, and contact Black Series about these issues.

Please see my posts here for photos.

https://rvforums.com/threads/black-series-fire-hazard.10253/

https://www.irv2.com/forums/f50/black-series-fire-hazard-575539.html#post6132794

Here is a link to file an NHTSA complaint.

https://www.nhtsa.gov/report-a-safety-problem#index
  • Anon_Tech wrote:


    Yes they are using residential outlets, screwed directly into cabinets. No boxes at all. I've hade to go through multiple units and replace all the outlets with enclosed RV ones.

    RVIA is a big circle jerk. NEC article 511 is specifically for RVs though. I'll agree all manufacturers build these things as cheaply as possible. Some are better than others, but almost all of them do atleast try to be mindful of safety if not serviceability.


    Pictures?

    No pictures, no proof.

    Your rant (post?) on IRV2 was pulled before you posted your first post here and no longer exists, wonder why?

    Your making a lot of serious allegations and have zero proof to back them.

    As mentioned, they CAN build RVs and even "manufactured homes" using the all in one boxless outlets (AKA vampire taps) and while I agree those are not the greatest design, they do pass the muster for not needing to be placed in a work box.

    There are also plastic workboxes that are specifically designed to not need or use clamps, punch the hole open and insert the Romex and done.

    The breaker panels used in RVs are combo 120V/12V breaker/fuse panels which on the 120V side will have both neutral and ground bus and those two are isolated. These are standard off the shelf panels made by well known manufacturers for RV use and they are 100% NEC approved.

    Heck even if they used a standard off the shelf breaker panel from Home Depot or Lowes those too also will have separate neutral and ground bus connections (and those are already "pre bonded" and you have to remove the bonding screw when installing as a sub panel) and are 100% NEC approved..

    Some of your complaints may because sometimes the bonding or lack of bonding screw is not obvious. Many times the neutral bus IS isolated and it doesn't look that way, just depends on how the manufacturer of said box setup the insulator.

    RV manufacturers while they may skimp on some things, they can't skimp and getaway with the alleged allegations you have made due to liabilities it could cause. They may be cheap, but they also are deeply aware of what can happen when skimping could cause death or destruction.

    As said, no pictures, never happened, to me you sound like a disgruntled former employee of the manufacturer or a disgruntled owner of that brand you are making claims against..
  • BurbMan wrote:
    Anon_Tech wrote:
    ...outlets with no boxes...


    FYI, the outlets they use in RVs are designed to be installed without boxes in shallow-depth walls. The outlets have no exposed contacts and internal cable clamps. Are they using residential outlets with side screws?



    The other stuff sounds pretty serious, especially in the main panel. I have the panel cover off in my Heartland Big Country and whoever wired it did a really neat and professional job, I was impressed.


    Yes they are using residential outlets, screwed directly into cabinets. No boxes at all. I've hade to go through multiple units and replace all the outlets with enclosed RV ones.


    Wade44 wrote:
    Perhaps take a good look at the wiring in some of the junk that comes out of Indiana by the big guys. Thor, Forest River, Winnebago, Grand Design etc. I think you would get a good surprise if you poke around the receptacles, shore power connectors, and AC side of converters / distribution panels, and know what your looking for.

    Those RVIA decals are a feely good joke and mean nothing.
    The RVIA certifies nothing. All that decal says is the manufacturer agrees to follow NFPA1192 which is the National Fire Protection Association. Its a good faith honor system thing as there is no inspector from the NFPA, RVIA, or anyone else in any RV factory anywhere. Read the decal, "Manufacturer certifies".




    RVIA is a big circle jerk. NEC article 511 is specifically for RVs though. I'll agree all manufacturers build these things as cheaply as possible. Some are better than others, but almost all of them do atleast try to be mindful of safety if not serviceability.
  • Black series? Probably all RVs have some electrical defect if taking a close look.
    Actually many systems are minimal, inadequate or defective. Please do your best when completing some work/repairs.
  • Pretty much the only thing fire related that's consistent is smoke alarms and fire extinguisher location.
  • Perhaps take a good look at the wiring in some of the junk that comes out of Indiana by the big guys. Thor, Forest River, Winnebago, Grand Design etc. I think you would get a good surprise if you poke around the receptacles, shore power connectors, and AC side of converters / distribution panels, and know what your looking for.

    Those RVIA decals are a feely good joke and mean nothing.
    The RVIA certifies nothing. All that decal says is the manufacturer agrees to follow NFPA1192 which is the National Fire Protection Association. Its a good faith honor system thing as there is no inspector from the NFPA, RVIA, or anyone else in any RV factory anywhere. Read the decal, "Manufacturer certifies".
  • Anon_Tech wrote:
    ...outlets with no boxes...


    FYI, the outlets they use in RVs are designed to be installed without boxes in shallow-depth walls. The outlets have no exposed contacts and internal cable clamps. Are they using residential outlets with side screws?



    The other stuff sounds pretty serious, especially in the main panel. I have the panel cover off in my Heartland Big Country and whoever wired it did a really neat and professional job, I was impressed.