Forum Discussion
74 Replies
Yosemite Sam1 wrote:
Whoa @Reisender, those are impressive posts and analysis.
Yeah, we've seen the same in California. In fact the state now requires all new houses to have solar panels as source of electricity. Hospitals, schools, company garages... etc. would have solar panels.
Western states have targets of 2035 to 2045 to have 100% of their electricity needs coming from renewables.
Yup, gas stations too are starting to have charging stations. And it's obiguitous in malls and commercial centers.
I wonder though what happened to Elon Musk's proposals to share access (for a fee) to other EV manufacturers and to have a common standards for all stations for this access.
That was being discussed awhile ago on TMC. From what I gather the offer still stands but no one has stepped up to the plate with the cash yet. Having said that CCS and Chademo sites are starting to build out fast now world wide. Tesla’s Supercharger advantage is easy billing and high speed. CCS and Chademo are gaining ground rapidly in the speed area but the vast majority of EV’s that are not Tesla can only charge at a 70 KW rate whereas Tesla V3 Super chargers are 250 KW and something like a model 3 and model Y can actually charge that fast. Other networks like EVgo are actually adding Tesla cables though. So far just in California but I think in a year from now most of these other companies will be putting Tesla hoses on their DCFC stations. If they dont they are missing the biggest batch of customers.- Whoa @Reisender, those are impressive posts and analysis.
Yeah, we've seen the same in California. In fact the state now requires all new houses to have solar panels as source of electricity. Hospitals, schools, company garages... etc. would have solar panels.
Western states have targets of 2035 to 2045 to have 100% of their electricity needs coming from renewables.
Yup, gas stations too are starting to have charging stations. And it's obiguitous in malls and commercial centers.
I wonder though what happened to Elon Musk's proposals to share access (for a fee) to other EV manufacturers and to have a common standards for all stations for this access. Reisender wrote:
valhalla360 wrote:
Yosemite Sam1 wrote:
My wish list is modest, a 240v electrical connection in public campsites.
Works great when there are 3 EVs in a 200 site park and you can have it now by getting a 50amp site.
But for wide scale EV usage...If you've ever been to a park on a hot summer weekend when everyone is running their air/con, you know that power goes out regularly.
Your average draw for air/con is usually around 11-12amp (single air/con on 30amp) or 22-24amp (dual air/con on 50amp sites).
Now imagine adding in 100 sites with EVs pulling the max amperage to charge up big battery packs regardless of the weather and run the numbers...and don't tell us how you can reduce the draw by setting it lower...you and I both know people will use as much as they can get away with until there are outages and even then, if they want to travel the next day, they will continue to bump up against those limits causing outages.
One of the parks we stay at has trouble on peak summer weekends (we bring our generator to account for this). Owner found out it was going to be upwards of $50k to upgrade his power feed to fix the problem. This didn't include rewiring the entire camp just the feed from the road to his main distribution panel. To add in EV charging at most sites, you would have to get an even bigger feed upgrade at even higher price. I'm betting you wouldn't be the first to step up and pay for it when most don't need it.
Meh. People find problems where there aren’t any. People driving EV’s are not evil. They just like the driving experience, performance, convenience. Most will obey the rules just like most people do. The campground director can simply say charging at designated sites only etc. Not a big deal now, won’t be then.
A lot of back and forth but I already said...works fine when it's a tiny percentage of sites.
But the goal of the eco-crowd is to make EVs the standard, so determining what happens when they get above 10% of users, is a big deal.
A single charging station isn't stressing the systems at a 200 site park and it's easy for the owner to shut it down if the system is being overloaded. If you ramp it up to even 25% of users, it will have to be charging at the site and that's a much bigger challenge.- I agree with you @ShinerBock, it will take a bit of time to achieve full service for EV for campgrounds.
It will moved and the phase will be again as usual by the mighty dollar in chasing customers and profits.
I think RV resorts will go first as part of their strategy to provide a hybrid vacation spots. We've seen similar developments in roadside motels. First they have it in their neon ads free cable. Then next, it's snow free Wifi. Those tha don't have one will get by passed by the travelers.
Next for us will be state, county and city park campgrounds.
And last, if ever, depending on federal budget or the philosophy of the sitting administration to support alternative energy or whether national parks will maintain the stance of providing just the so-called pure wilderness experience. - Shiner, your points make too much real world sense.
Of course EVs will evolve. As will the infrastructure to support them. But the only ones who think it will be free (or not nearly as costly as it actually will be) are the "future thinkers" who are thinking only of their personal future and either don't under stand or choose not to understand the cost of infrastructure improvements.
Case in point $35k for a 1 vehicle standalone remote charging station. That thing will have to offset somewhere between 300,000 and 450,000 fossil fuel cost of gasoline miles to break even. Yes it's a cool, novel concept. What do you think would happen to that station near a city? It would be broke/vandalized, stripped of it's copper, on a regular basis.
I looked at getting a "decent" used Tesla for the wife's kid hauling duties. You know, 120 mile round trips, charge at home, voila, no fuel bills. Rough numbers between the EV solution (being reasonable, using the lowest priced, high mile, used Tesla I could find anywhere) and the gas guzzler solution (14mpg is what the other "option" gets), I could buy gas for about 160,000 miles, conservatively, before breaking even. And I can buy parts for the guzzler at Autozone! Based on that, I might break even about 2 years AFTER that option would no longer be needed. If I wanted to compare that to putting her in a fuel efficient vehicle with double the fuel mileage, double the break even time to 12 years!
So, here I had the "perfect" situation for an EV. Local travel, but enough miles that she's burning alot of dead dinosaurs, ability to charge at home, no need for towing, etc etc.
And it wasn't even close to being a good financial decision!
I applaud those that are supporting the industry and furthering "good" technology. Only regret is that I didn't invest in Tesla a few years ago, might have enough $ that I wouldn't care what it cost to run a EV, lol. Reisender wrote:
Yah. I don't think any country is ready for an overnight change. But they have a few decades to sort it out. Personally I'm not buying into the hopeless US situation. The US I know is is innovative, adaptable and quite often successful in the face of a challenge. Every country including the US will sort it out regardless of the can't do attitude we often see on forums like this and news story comments. You guys might be behind the eight ball now but you'll come out stronger as a result.
Five years ago our province was lagging behind in EV infrastructure as well. I think there were 7 DCFC and maybe 30 L2 charging facilities within 500 KM of our house. Now there are hundreds of DCFC's and I don't think anybody even tracks L2 chargers anymore. We are second behind Quebec and just in front of Washington State for infrastructure now. Huge change from a few years ago. We are on track for 10 percent of vehicle sales to be electric this year in this province, 4 years ahead of schedule. Demand is fueling infrastructure development. Quebec will be hard to catch. Great infrastructure there. It will be California that shines in the next couple years for development. My personal prediction is they will lead in the next three years. In one year 2 networks completed cross Canada DCFC charging infrastructure and a third will happen by 2021. (Tesla, Petro Canada this year and Shell next year). Interesting that two are gas companies.
Anyway. Enjoyed the discussion. Off to work on the honey dew list. Yeh. :)
I am not saying the we or any else is hopeless. Not saying we won't get there either. I am just saying that there is a lot more to it than just installing chargers, and it will take a lot longer than some here seem to think. There are many hurtles in just the infrastructure alone such as cost, manpower, supplies(copper ain't cheap), and so on.
The major downside of this is that it will make the cost increase for those who are already using this power in order to pay for all of this needed infrastructure. It will cost even more to get it done in the timeline people here are expecting. This will hurt the poor the most and will increase the cost to charge a vehicle exponentially in the future especially during peak times. What people do not understand is that the price for power is not static and changes depending on peak hours. Right now, the night time is not peak hours so it is really cheap at this time. However, if everyone charges at this time, then that will push it into peak power costs.
You also have the political aspect of it because I am sure the poor or middle class will not like their electric bills doubling or even tripling just so people can charge their EVs. Get enough of them mad to sway a vote and that could change things.ShinerBock wrote:
Reisender wrote:
Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.
New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. :)
I don't know exactly how or even if other countries(that ave lower populations) are able to keep up with demand which is an assumption at this point. However, it appears buying doing quick Google searches on the matter that we aren't alone either.
UK power grid won’t handle popularity of electric cars, say service operators
German power grid not ready for e-car boom - study
I do know that most EV owners also have an ICE vehicle as back up which would allow you to charge for a lot longer time using less electricity at once since the need to charge every night or every other night is not there. The problem is not how many EV cars are out there, the problem is how many will need to charge at one time in a certain area and if they are all on fast chargers then that taxes the local grid even more. As stated before in the scenario of a 100 pad campground where half of the people would need to charge over night. That would take a lot of energy to quick charge or even trickle charge that many vehicles at one time.
Yah. I don't think any country is ready for an overnight change. But they have a few decades to sort it out. Personally I'm not buying into the hopeless US situation. The US I know is is innovative, adaptable and quite often successful in the face of a challenge. Every country including the US will sort it out regardless of the can't do attitude we often see on forums like this and news story comments. You guys might be behind the eight ball now but you'll come out stronger as a result.
Five years ago our province was lagging behind in EV infrastructure as well. I think there were 7 DCFC and maybe 30 L2 charging facilities within 500 KM of our house. Now there are hundreds of DCFC's and I don't think anybody even tracks L2 chargers anymore. We are second behind Quebec and just in front of Washington State for infrastructure now. Huge change from a few years ago. We are on track for 10 percent of vehicle sales to be electric this year in this province, 4 years ahead of schedule. Demand is fueling infrastructure development. Quebec will be hard to catch. Great infrastructure there. It will be California that shines in the next couple years for development. My personal prediction is they will lead in the next three years. In one year 2 networks completed cross Canada DCFC charging infrastructure and a third will happen by 2021. (Tesla, Petro Canada this year and Shell next year). Interesting that two are gas companies.
Anyway. Enjoyed the discussion. Off to work on the honey dew list. Yeh. :)Reisender wrote:
Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.
New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. :)
I don't know exactly how or even if other countries(that ave lower populations) are able to keep up with demand which is an assumption at this point. However, it appears buying doing quick Google searches on the matter that we aren't alone either.
UK power grid won’t handle popularity of electric cars, say service operators
German power grid not ready for e-car boom - study
I do know that most EV owners also have an ICE vehicle as back up which would allow you to charge for a lot longer time using less electricity at once since the need to charge every night or every other night is not there. The problem is not how many EV cars are out there, the problem is how many will need to charge at one time in a certain area and if they are all on fast chargers then that taxes the local grid even more. As stated before in the scenario of a 100 pad campground where half of the people would need to charge over night. That would take a lot of energy to quick charge or even trickle charge that many vehicles at one time.ShinerBock wrote:
Reisender wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
Reisender wrote:
It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.
But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.
All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.
Agreed, that is why I say infrastructure is not static. It is constantly evolving. Take the Clipper creek unit in my pictures. That company made a decision to spend probably a few grand on putting that unit in. At this point I don't think it draws a lot of clientele but who knows in the future. They have a start though. That park is kind of a summer Vacation park with lots of permanents on leased lots. My guess is there are a bunch of owners/leasers with EV's (common in this area) and they got together and put it in. Just a guess. Surprisingly it is not a pay unit. Essentially free. That is the advantage of going with a company like chargepoint. They do all the work and just cut you in on the profits.
You are missing my point. I am not talking about the people putting in the chargers needing to upgrade their infrastructure. I am talking about the utility company that sends the power to that charger. A few or maybe even a dozen chargers are fine especially when there are so few EV's out their. However, adding more chargers and and more people using them will require more power, larger lines to send that power, and more substations to keep up the volume. Things that will cost a lot of money and that over 80% of the different utility companies are even ready for and will not be ready for in the next 20 or 30 years according to the smart electric power alliance.
My brother works for City Public Service in San Antonio in underground utilities. His main job is adding new lines or upgrading existing lines to larger ones due to demand along with repairing old lines in the underground areas downtown. They can't even keep up with the demand of adding new or upgraded lines for new buildings and the added pollution let alone alone what would happen if hundreds of chargers were added.
A few here and there are fine, but hundreds were require a major overhaul of their downtown grid. They have enough power due to their coal plants, wind mills, solar, and nuclear plants, but the infrastructure to meet the demand is way behind and they don't have the money or manpower to meet it even in the coming decades due to barely being able to keep up now. This would require additional funding and manpower which will come at the expense of people's electric bill. Some estimates say that the bills could double or even triple which will have a significant impact on the poor and will likely push many in the middle class below the poverty line.
Yes, the next few decades will definitely bring change. I can't really relate to the US situation which I hear is dire. From what I hear from posters on this forum and others the US grid is hopelessly out of date and constantly on the verge of collapse with very little hope of keeping up. I get that but many countries around the world are seeing their way to adjust to the estimated 19 to 22 percent increase of power needed to electrify the personal passenger fleet of vehicles. Sorry, I don't know much about the US grid issues, just what I read here.
New micro grid technologies will be employed to get a better handle on it as well. Here is an example of a covered enclosure that will suit the daily power needs of the average daily commuter. (6-8 KW) This kind of approach will work in some areas lightening the load on the grid in others. This kind of thing is actually getting more common in California. I have seen this type of installation in Germany as well but the roofs were much steeper. :)
Variations on a theme.
This one is in a Washington State park. 10 minute setup. About 35000 bucks. Truck drives in and drops it off. Built in storage. Great for isolated areas. Built in San diego. There is no singe solution but rather a collage.
Reisender wrote:
ShinerBock wrote:
Reisender wrote:
It is a valid concern Shiner but as you and I have discussed infrastructure is not static. Adding a half dozen J1772 32 amp Level 2 locations would probably suffice for the next couple decades and would be compatible with every EV. Probably just get a company like ChargePoint to put them in and then just share the profit. Maybe do it modular. A couple at first, a couple more when they get busy etc. ChargePoint is good at that kind of thing. I noticed on one of my appraisal trips that one of the campgrounds near Kelowna put a clipper creek 40 amp unit in last year. Probably the first campground close to us with a permanent J1772.
But what about getting power to these chargers? The more chargers they add, the more they need to upgrade the lines going to these chargers. You are not dealing with just one utility company here. You are dealing with hundreds of independent entities with different budgets, manpower, supplies, priorities, and so on. Then you have the cost to upgrade these lines which will go to the end user causing their electric bill to increase. The ones this will hurt the most will be the poor.
All I am saying is that it is not as simple as some tend to think and you these changes will require more than just putting in a charger and will effect more than just the EV owner.
Agreed, that is why I say infrastructure is not static. It is constantly evolving. Take the Clipper creek unit in my pictures. That company made a decision to spend probably a few grand on putting that unit in. At this point I don't think it draws a lot of clientele but who knows in the future. They have a start though. That park is kind of a summer Vacation park with lots of permanents on leased lots. My guess is there are a bunch of owners/leasers with EV's (common in this area) and they got together and put it in. Just a guess. Surprisingly it is not a pay unit. Essentially free. That is the advantage of going with a company like chargepoint. They do all the work and just cut you in on the profits.
You are missing my point. I am not talking about the people putting in the chargers needing to upgrade their infrastructure. I am talking about the utility company that sends the power to that charger. A few or maybe even a dozen chargers are fine especially when there are so few EV's out their. However, adding more chargers and and more people using them will require more power, larger lines to send that power, and more substations to keep up the volume. Things that will cost a lot of money and that over 80% of the different utility companies are even ready for and will not be ready for in the next 20 or 30 years according to the smart electric power alliance.
My brother works for City Public Service in San Antonio in underground utilities. His main job is adding new lines or upgrading existing lines to larger ones due to demand along with repairing old lines in the underground areas downtown. They can't even keep up with the demand of adding new or upgraded lines for new buildings and the added pollution let alone alone what would happen if hundreds of chargers were added.
A few here and there are fine, but hundreds were require a major overhaul of their downtown grid. They have enough power due to their coal plants, wind mills, solar, and nuclear plants, but the infrastructure to meet the demand is way behind and they don't have the money or manpower to meet it even in the coming decades due to barely being able to keep up now. This would require additional funding and manpower which will come at the expense of people's electric bill. Some estimates say that the bills could double or even triple which will have a significant impact on the poor and will likely push many in the middle class below the poverty line.
