Hello, All,I just purchased a 20' camper frame from the 1970's to build a tiny house on (the deck actually measures 18' 6", but I think they listed it as 20'). I live in an older Terry fifth wheel now and that is getting old during winter, so I'm hoping to build myself something--as/if funds allow--to do a little better. The camper frame has the Dayton Fayette axles and heavy duty suspension. The hubs are stamped 5-1-70, and they have the 10" brake drums, with brakes on *both* axles... and I'm desperate for some help identifying the axle rating and scoring a few part numbers, as well, if any of you can help me.The first question, then, is what are the axles rated at? The diameter of the axle and spindle are slightly more than is typical for 3500lb axles (the 2 3/8" and 1.719" normally quoted numbers--my axle is 2 3/4", or a hair more, and my spindle is 1.732", as best I can tell, on both), and, having read that some of the older models were actually rated at 4100lb, I'm wondering if these are (I need to know before I build on it, is why I ask). To add to the confusion, I've also read that some 5200lb axles actually measure in at the 2 3/8" diameter range too, so I don't know what to assume I have. With the heavy suspension and it being older, I'm thinking more than 3500lb, but can't be sure, if you could help me identify the rating. The coupler, if it matters, is a Marvel Class 3 unit.The shocks I am getting/that I think will work are the Lippert LC283280. At least, I'm hoping those work. Second, the trailer is missing four of the tapered 60° 1/2-20 bolts for the hubs, and I'm struggling to find replacements. I've searched and found the various places that sell the bolts of this type that are often linked in the forums, but they sell them with a *fine* thread, and I need *coarse," RH. Anybody know where four could be scored? And a salvage yard is fine.Last, is there a PDF with the brake diagram on it, so that I can compare to see what might be missing? There are no lights at present, and the brakes have been cut, but I'm going to buy some lights and a harness and rewire it all, and need to know what to look for on the brakes when I inspect them, to know what needs to be replaced. Or if there are just some general things you know of—at first glance, they all seem to be there, though one scrubs when one wheel turns. I am told Dexter makes replacement parts, and have contacted them, but they're not proving very helpful. (Also, my idea of testing them is to wire the trailer, then hook it up to the truck, jacking up each tire or axle and spinning it while someone engages the brakes, to see, first, if it stops the tire and, second, if it releases it; does that sound like an appropriate method for testing them?)And do any of you know the style or replacement part numbers with Dexter for them?Anyway, any part references you can give on the bushings or seals or anything, please feel free. Anything you can link me to would be awesome, as well, shematics-wise, etc. I have ordered some seals already that I think will work, and have a shock in mind I'm going to try, as well, but am not sure about Class D or E on tires to order them. As for swapping the axles out--I don't have funds for that with all that I'm in for already, but, given how few times the thing will be on the road, would just as soon not spend the money on it. I mean, I may move it twice in my life, if that.I am adding photos. I'm not sure if you can see it from the pictures, but the two wheeled axles are connected to that third axle between them, which is hooked to those bumpers between the wheels. It's weird, or, at least, I've never seen it before, but it looks heavy duty.The main thing is, I'm not even sure what the devil I have or what you would call that suspension to even search for stuff on it. "Dayton Fayette" I can do, of course, not that that is helping any.Thanks, in advance,Gary

Instead of trying to rebuild those OLD axles/Brakes with parts that are obsolete/hard if not impossible to find........buy a couple of NEW 5200# axle with electric brake assemblies and be done with itBut if you gotta have them call these folks. They use to have lots of axle parts etcMouser Steel Supply at (573) 866-2979.

Well, like I was saying, that's too expensive an option at this point, or, at least, given the $700 dollars, etc., I'm seeing them go for. Too, the suspension on this thing is the issue: New axles would mean me having to trade out the suspension too, at least, IF what Dexter is telling me is legit (they are trying to upsale me, so I only half trust them).Thanks for the reply.

Old-Biscuit wrote:Instead of trying to rebuild those OLD axles/Brakes with parts that are obsolete/hard if not impossible to find........buy a couple of NEW 5200# axle with electric brake assemblies and be done with itX2 and I'd go a step further by throwing some Dexter Torflex axles on and eliminating shocks and springs entirely. Either #11 @ 6K rating or even #12 (7K) or #D13 (8K).

Finding parts for anything almost 50 years old can be problematic,and if you even locate parts, they will be expensive. Replace with current production axles and be done with it. If you think the costs for new axles is expensive, just wait until you have a breakdown on the road with those obsolete axles!

I'm not sure why everyone is ignoring my caveat: Such measures are too expensive for me to afford, especially if you look at the photos and see what all would be involved in pulling the old hardware off, e.g., I don't weld or have access to a cutting torch without having to pay the premium for that, too. It's not just a matter of swapping something out, as on a newer model. The hubs I'm probably in for, but the axles I'm stuck with. Too, given that this thing won't be on the road probably but twice or maybe three times as long as I have it, the benefit-cost analysis makes doing anything more than necessary a waste. Thanks for the advice, though.

Dayton Fayette Axle Identification and Questions

Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
westend wrote:
For future steel painters, here's a tip: If painting rusty steel here's how I proceed--Knock off any large rust. Brush with steel brush until I can't take any more. Spray with dilute phosphoric acid, brush, let sit, spray again and rinse immediately. Let dry. Paint.

Lately, I've been using liquid water softener cleaner from the Big Box stores for the phosphoric acid part. You can also buy Martin-Senour Iron Etch at autobody distributors but it is 6 times as expensive and any PA will work.

FWIW, I used flat black on my trailer tongue and it looks great.

Keep rolling those plans around in the grey matter. Figure how you're going to move inside and what goes where. One of the real advantages to building, yourself, is getting everything how you like it. For the record: I dislike making overhangs on trailers. I guess sometimes it's necessary to capture more space but they are a ***** to keep sealed and in one spot.

Thanks for that heads up. I was antsy and in a hurry to get done, so I didn't put half that much into it: I did sand all the rust off (I'm still at it a little, actually), as well as the loose paint, then blew it off with the air hose and cleaned it with just soapy water. I'm not sure how long that'll hold, but we'll see. (I did use self-etching primer on the bare spots, though.) I can appreciate your methods, though, and am making some notes.

And, yeah, I'm only half-committed to the overhang myself. We'll see. Like with the kitchen, anything at this point is merely theoretical: when it comes down to laying the lumber, it may *all* go out the window!

In this case, a tiny house window. Ha!

At this point, I have a little more sanding and painting to do, am waiting on the tires and shocks and new jack, and think I'm going to order two new drums and just roll with two instead of four. Then it's on to laying it out.

Well, I'm gone for a few days, in case anyone replies again and I don't respond right away. You all take care in the interim.
westend
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
If I have enough screen time, this week, I'll try to get the image thing in that Cowboy/Hilton thread sorted.

The frame looks very stout, I'd suggest to just start building.

For future steel painters, here's a tip: If painting rusty steel here's how I proceed--Knock off any large rust. Brush with steel brush until I can't take any more. Spray with dilute phosphoric acid, brush, let sit, spray again and rinse immediately. Let dry. Paint.
Lately, I've been using liquid water softener cleaner from the Big Box stores for the phosphoric acid part. You can also buy Martin-Senour Iron Etch at autobody distributors but it is 6 times as expensive and any PA will work.
FWIW, I used flat black on my trailer tongue and it looks great.

Keep rolling those plans around in the grey matter. Figure how you're going to move inside and what goes where. One of the real advantages to building, yourself, is getting everything how you like it. For the record: I dislike making overhangs on trailers. I guess sometimes it's necessary to capture more space but they are a ***** to keep sealed and in one spot.
Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
****, for $450, even having to put six or so in it, as I'm having to do, I felt like it was worth it, and it made it the 2.5 hours back home on two wobbly hubs that hadn't previously been tightened properly.

I don't have photos of where I currently am yet, but I'm 80% finished with sanding and painting it a flat back, two coats ($.97 a can at Home Depot, with heat resistant where necessary). I wanted the gloss, but stripping *all* the old off was more labor intensive than I was in for, and when I tried the gloss, the imperfections showed much worse than I thought they would (I knew they would some, but, wow). It's pretty jam up right now, though.
Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
Thanks for those photos, Westend.

I just sent you a PM to touch base, for when I get to wiring it or run into other things. I'll be mining Cowboy Hilton too, I'm sure, and do hope maybe you can add your photos back to it, some along.

What I'm going to do is have a low-high-low set up, with a small extension over the tongue. Before your advice above, I was indeed going to center the kitchen over the axles and (oddly enough, lol) actually split it, with a step down to the bathroom in the center like a galley alley on a sailboat, and with the loft on 2x4's eye level at the kitchen (to give myself some head room without pushing the 13' 6" height restrictions). I've debated the split of the kitchen layout, myself, but, we'll see--right now, it's still really, really just some various ideas running around the old noggin.

Anyway, it occurs to me to give you a picture of the whole frame, to see what you think. This is it as I brought it home:
westend
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
Wolfrequiem wrote:
westend wrote:
A "star" scheme is where you have at least one individual wire to each brake set. I also ran forward, the (-) partner for each brake set because I wanted to have all the wires on one terminal strip.

You can read through the restoration thread in my signature line, "the Cowboy/Hilton" but it is without pictures, ATM. Photobucket wrecked that for us. If you do look through there and find something of interest, PM me and I can email you some pictures about a process.

Thanks. I will do that. Oddly enough, I think whoever had it wired before me had it the way you say do it--the wires are clipped on the back ones without my being able to tell, but one single wire feeds individual wires back into the center like you're suggesting on what is left of the wiring still on there (if my describing it that way makes sense).

westend wrote:
If I have one piece of advice to give a builder for a project like this is to draw some plans. They don't need to be Cadcam quality, just a general layout of mechanicals and the fixtures you're adding like bunks, counter tops, cupboards, etc. Those plans will serve as a reminder and help schedule the different parts of building.

I'm a carpenter by trade, and I've been sitting down the last few evenings doing just exactly what you suggest here, and modifying them to come under weight, first, getting individual weights of 2x's and plywood and siding, etc., and then even comparing it to different ways of doing the same thing, i.e., seeing if vinyl siding and osb is really much lighter than, say, T-111.

So, I'm with you on that one and definitely trying. Then, again, with this monkey wrench above, if that turns out to be the case, I don't see how I could go light enough to do half what I want and not overload the stupid things. I don't need 9K of axle, but at least the 7K of 3500lb-ers would be nice. Man, I hope Fayette has some better news for me tomorrow.

I'm looking for the picture in a folder of the brake wiring.

A pair of wires is lead from each brake wire magnet through this conduit:

The brake wiring is terminated on this terminal strip, in a box, on the tongue of my trailer. All the light wires also terminate on this strip:

"I'm a carpenter by trade"--small world. I wouldn't worry so much about what the weights of materials will be other than making sure you have the fore-aft and side-side somewhat even. Kitchens and baths throw off the weights but who wants different appliances on opposing walls (maybe you do, good luck).

Your frame is very stout and will forgiving of any extra weight added on it's rails. Just make sure the frame is stout in the center where the rail suspension acts to somewhat twist torque (in those upright boxes). The long, round, welded drawbar extension is also helping you here. Hey, if you still have a plaque on the tongue, it may list the GWR?

Because it was me designing my trailer, I added in things like tiled heater surrounds, plank countertops, and most of the interior bunk and settee framing is 2 x 4. I also have over 200 lbs of batteries inside. I ended up about 1000 lbs over the original Starcraft's Gross weight but I had found that the same sized rail frame was used for their bigger trailers. Really, it is built so well, that I could plank the frame and carry equipment on it.

Bottom line, if you built an 8' x 12' yard barn, 16" OC, 8' sidewall, with a shingle roof, your trailer will haul it.

Your project interests me as there are few builders that start from a scratch frame and complete to a livable space. For even a Jr carpenter, the framing, decking and roof is small spuds. I used as much recycled wood as I had lying around. Cedar was one I had a bit of and it fit the bill for a lot of what I did.

Edit: Adhesives--I probably used 30 tubes of PL400 (or similar), used it in almost all framing joints, where I ledgered frame pieces, added pieces, decking, etc. This does get pulled down the road and the adhesive helps hold it all together.
Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
LVJJJ wrote:
BTW-does your '79 Sierra have a 292 motor? They are towing monsters.

No, mine actually had the 250, LV. But it pulled well enough (I've always heard that about the 292, as well.)

I actually just sold my 79 in May. It was all original and only had 103K original miles on it. I mean, I'd replaced some things like the clutch, pressure plate, etc., and then put the shifter on the floor (the column locked up on me in a tight and I was forced to for the sake of time), but that truck was in great, great shape.

I have an 89 F-250 with the big 7.5L now (I had to get something I could resort to for the fifth wheel I live in when the time comes to move). I'm actually in it for a bit of work, as it turns out one of the head gaskets is going on it between 1 and 2. It's a monster, though. (My daily driver is a Ranger with the V6.)
Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
westend wrote:
A "star" scheme is where you have at least one individual wire to each brake set. I also ran forward, the (-) partner for each brake set because I wanted to have all the wires on one terminal strip.

You can read through the restoration thread in my signature line, "the Cowboy/Hilton" but it is without pictures, ATM. Photobucket wrecked that for us. If you do look through there and find something of interest, PM me and I can email you some pictures about a process.

Thanks. I will do that. Oddly enough, I think whoever had it wired before me had it the way you say do it--the wires are clipped on the back ones without my being able to tell, but one single wire feeds individual wires back into the center like you're suggesting on what is left of the wiring still on there (if my describing it that way makes sense).

westend wrote:
If I have one piece of advice to give a builder for a project like this is to draw some plans. They don't need to be Cadcam quality, just a general layout of mechanicals and the fixtures you're adding like bunks, counter tops, cupboards, etc. Those plans will serve as a reminder and help schedule the different parts of building.

I'm a carpenter by trade, and I've been sitting down the last few evenings doing just exactly what you suggest here, and modifying them to come under weight, first, getting individual weights of 2x's and plywood and siding, etc., and then even comparing it to different ways of doing the same thing, i.e., seeing if vinyl siding and osb is really much lighter than, say, T-111.

So, I'm with you on that one and definitely trying. Then, again, with this monkey wrench above, if that turns out to be the case, I don't see how I could go light enough to do half what I want and not overload the stupid things. I don't need 9K of axle, but at least the 7K of 3500lb-ers would be nice. Man, I hope Fayette has some better news for me tomorrow.
Wolfrequiem
Explorer
Nov 01, 2017
Wolfrequiem wrote:
For posterity and anyone that tunes in later looking for information: These 2 3/4" axles, with the 1.732" spindles, are 4400lb axles. Hooray! I was wanting that most of all. I have brakes on both, which is what made me think it.

Sigh. Just when I'm rejoicing, a second "authority," etrailer gets back with me and says the axles are only 2500lb-ers. If that is the case, I will *have* to replace the axles--I can do without 8800lb of towing, but I need 6K, bare minimum. So... if that's the case, I may just finish the restore and sell it. I am waiting on a final word from Fayette to see.

If you look at the pictures, the axle is bolted into what I'm going to call a claw off that middle wheel-less axle on both sides. If I did go with heavier axles, could I simply open the claw and insert the new axle without having to buy new leafsprings and all that too? I'd have to have new brakes and new hubs/wheels, I guess? ****, I don't even know what is involved in that, but both axles have that middle welded section that bolts one, onto the frame, and then, two (the back one), onto the middle wheel-less axle. That's why I didn't want to undertake that--it's not just a matter of swapping out the axle.

Well, that's suck AND double suck (if it turns out to be the case--etrailer went by the bearings, though I found one place separate that suggests those same bearings are not exclusively used on just the lighter weight axles, so I haven't a clue...)
LVJJJ
Explorer
Oct 31, 2017
I think the advice to get new axles is good, but like you, I prefer the challenge of resurrecting old equipment, the search for parts is part of the "fun." I had an '85 Wilderness that had 13" star wheels. I was advised to have my eye out for extra wheels. Didn't have it that long so never needed any. I did rewire the brakes to the star system as the 13" brakes weren't that effective.

As noted in my signature, I've had a 1965 Chevy Van since 1970 and in '88 converted it to a tow vehicle by installing a 292 ci 6 and a TH350 trans. Parts aren't easy to find but as a member of the Vintage Chevy Van Club, you get a lot of help finding them. You also have to figure out how to make the old parts if they aren't out there. Still have it.
btw- does your '79 Sierra have a 292 motor? They are towing monsters.
westend
Explorer
Oct 31, 2017
I was definitely going to go with a terminal strip/box. I'm not sure about the "star" scheme difference you mention and will need to research it to know what to do.

A "star" scheme is where you have at least one individual wire to each brake set. I also ran forward, the (-) partner for each brake set because I wanted to have all the wires on one terminal strip.
The typical brake wiring is how you have the wires now, with one power wire looping between the four brake sets in a chain, hence, "daisy chain".

You can read through the restoration thread in my signature line, "the Cowboy/Hilton" but it is without pictures, ATM. Photobucket wrecked that for us. If you do look through there and find something of interest, PM me and I can email you some pictures about a process.

If I have one piece of advice to give a builder for a project like this is to draw some plans. They don't need to be Cadcam quality, just a general layout of mechanicals and the fixtures you're adding like bunks, counter tops, cupboards, etc. Those plans will serve as a reminder and help schedule the different parts of building.

Beyond that, build sturdy and insulate the heck out of everything. Insulation pays off for years down the road.