Ecoboost vs. V8 - Can you explain?

liberty02, cmon bud. I get it you like the Ecoboost. So do I, so does he, so does everyone....well maybe almost everyone.
But think about it. If it was really just that easy and lobbed up like a grapefruit to hit, do you not think that someone would have made a big forced induction gas truck motor by now?
If anyone could do it, it would be Ford because you can get a 48 gal tank in them. And you'd need it. It would shame a whole bar full of sailors with it's drinking problem! Add 50% more power across the board to set it firmly above big new NA gassers, but still less torque than the diesels but way more hp and 4mpg pulling that big 5th wheel up a mountain or across the great plains.

He!!, my buddy could get single digit fuel mileage with his blown TRD Tacoma in the mountains pulling an open sled trailer. But it was very peppy.

JRscooby wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?

They probably don't do it because of the cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories. It is much easier and more cost effect to re-scale and take away cylinders for various displacement sizes of a certain block configuration versus having two block configurations.

Cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories? IMHO, they did that.
Had a engine that was pretty cheap to run, and real dependable back when using points and carb. Instead of putting Fuel Injection on that when needed to clean the exhaust everything had to go V. Ford put throttle body on the 302 V8, and made big improvement in power and economy. Why not the 300 inch 6? If they had, then would not take much to add the turbo

It is not just about re-engineering an engine. You have to re-engineer everything that is attached to it as well like accersory drives, engine mounts and so on. Inline engines are also longer so you have re-engineer the cooling system too.

Then there is the re-tooling of the factories that are based on Ford's modular engine designs and other V engines. If you have ever been in an engine factory with all sorts of specialized equipment, tools, and jigs just for one engine configuration, then you know how much of an undertaking it would be to change all of them.

Not saying it can't be done, and would in fact love to see an inline 6 Ecoboost engine. I am just saying that the reason why they probably didn't go that route is the added cost versus just re-utilizing what they already have.

ShinerBock wrote:

JRscooby wrote:
Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?

They probably don't do it because of the cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories. It is much easier and more cost effect to re-scale and take away cylinders for various displacement sizes of a certain block configuration versus having two block configurations.

Cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories? IMHO, they did that.
Had a engine that was pretty cheap to run, and real dependable back when using points and carb. Instead of putting Fuel Injection on that when needed to clean the exhaust everything had to go V. Ford put throttle body on the 302 V8, and made big improvement in power and economy. Why not the 300 inch 6? If they had, then would not take much to add the turbo

JRscooby wrote:
Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?

They probably don't do it because of the cost associated with re-engineering a whole new motor/supporting systems and completely re-tooling the factories. It is much easier and more cost effect to re-scale and take away cylinders for various displacement sizes of a certain block configuration versus having two block configurations.

Although BMW and Mercedes already make an inline 6 turbocharged direct injected engines in many of their vehicles. Mercedes just recently went back to inline engines while BMW has been making inline 6's for decades. The X5 SUV with an turbocharged inline 6 3.0L is rated to tow over 6k. These are closed deck engines and would probably run into cooling issues if put in a truck meant to tow 10k.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

librty02 wrote:
Who said a gas engine would get the same mpg as a diesel? HP to HP that would most likely be possible...

Aaaaa you did. Then you doubled down and said:

librty02 wrote:
IF a boosted V8 was designed and done so correctly I bet it could get very close to what a diesel engine gets unloaded in mpg's. Maybe more. Towing who knows.

I'm saying that is thermodynamically impossible. A fuel that has less energy can't do the same amount of work. It's impossible.

It's like saying an 400hp alcohol engine will use the same amount of fuel as a 400hp gasoline engine. They both make the same amount of power but the alcohol (methanol) engine will use around 2X's the fuel to do it.

Engine design has nothing to do with the amount of BTU's a fuel has. Nothing.

If you don't believe me go to some towing forums where owners have the Ecoboost and the Ecodiesel and see what they get towing and not towing and come on back here and report if you found any that are close. (Yes, I know the Ecoboost has more HP but I will let you account for that if you want even though they use the same pulling the same trailer down a flat and level road.)

Show me where I did ?!?!? I said it probably would get close to the diesel and that is no lie for sure I've owned both...been there done that.

And I'm not referring to half tons either...heavy duties...and as I have said before with the 30% difference in fuel cost and the upfront price of the diesel...it would be a tight competition for a lot of people like I've stated before. I would much rather have the ecoboost over the ecodiesel any day that's for dang sure.I've driven them and they are just so dang slow it's not even funny but that's an entire different subject :R

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

librty02 wrote:
Who said a gas engine would get the same mpg as a diesel? HP to HP that would most likely be possible...

Aaaaa you did. Then you doubled down and said:

librty02 wrote:
IF a boosted V8 was designed and done so correctly I bet it could get very close to what a diesel engine gets unloaded in mpg's. Maybe more. Towing who knows.

I'm saying that is thermodynamically impossible. A fuel that has less energy can't do the same amount of work. It's impossible.

It's like saying an 400hp alcohol engine will use the same amount of fuel as a 400hp gasoline engine. They both make the same amount of power but the alcohol (methanol) engine will use around 2X's the fuel to do it.

Engine design has nothing to do with the amount of BTU's a fuel has. Nothing.

If you don't believe me go to some towing forums where owners have the Ecoboost and the Ecodiesel and see what they get towing and not towing and come on back here and report if you found any that are close. (Yes, I know the Ecoboost has more HP but I will let you account for that if you want even though they use the same pulling the same trailer down a flat and level road.)

deleted

librty02 wrote:
Who said a gas engine would get the same mpg as a diesel? HP to HP that would most likely be possible...

Aaaaa you did. Then you doubled down and said:

librty02 wrote:
IF a boosted V8 was designed and done so correctly I bet it could get very close to what a diesel engine gets unloaded in mpg's. Maybe more. Towing who knows.

I'm saying that is thermodynamically impossible. A fuel that has less energy can't do the same amount of work. It's impossible.

It's like saying an 400hp alcohol engine will use the same amount of fuel as a 400hp gasoline engine. They both make the same amount of power but the alcohol (methanol) engine will use around 2X's the fuel to do it.

Engine design has nothing to do with the amount of BTU's a fuel has. Nothing.

If you don't believe me go to some towing forums where owners have the Ecoboost and the Ecodiesel and see what they get towing and not towing and come on back here and report if you found any that are close. (Yes, I know the Ecoboost has more HP but I will let you account for that if you want even though they use the same pulling the same trailer down a flat and level road.)

Where is it written that gas engines must be V whatever? What would happen if they put modern fuel and spark control, and a turbo on a 5 L I 6?

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:
Let me first state that I am a big fan of the 3.5L Ecoboost engine. I had on in both my personal F150HD and F150 work truck putting over 250k miles combined on with the 3.5L Ecoboost.

The main problem with putting a gasoline turbocharged engine into an SD is heat. Gasoline turbocharged engines create a lot of it when worked hard for a sustained period of time. This is why the 3.5L Ecoboost has an open deck block even though most turbocharged gasoline engines put in cars are closed or semi-closed such as the infamous Supra 2JZ block which is known for handling high psi and over a thousand horsepower. This is needed to carry away the cylinder heat when you are under a sustained high load such as towing. Most gasoline turbocharged engines in cars are not under high loads for a long duration of time like a truck is when towing so a closed or semi-closed will offer enough cooling in these applications.

Most HD/SD V8 gas are iron closed deck designs for a reason. This aides in long term durability in their duty cycle. These engines can have a closed deck block and still remain cool because they are generally at high rpm when under load which is moving air in and out of the cylinders at a high rate which aides in cooling. While turbocharged engines move a lot of air into the cylinder to compress it(which creates more heat), they generally operate at much lower rpm which causing more heat buildup in the cylinders and block.

Diesels are an iron(CGI) closed deck design, but even though diesels are turbocharged like the Ecoboost they retain a lot less heat within their blocks due to their higher thermal efficiency. It is much more efficient at converting thermal energy into mechanical energy so an open/semi-closed deck is not needed to keep them cool under high constant load.

There is much more to it than slapping any ole engine into an SD/HD truck application and calling it good. Many things would have to be considered. I am not saying it will never be done(especially with the new cooling tech that was just discovered) or that the Ecoboost is not a long lasting durable engine. I am just saying that the cooling requirements of an SD/HD duty cycle is probably the reason why Ford has not put a small 4.X V8 Ecoboost in an SD.

Boom! Nailed it!

Let me also say anybody that says a turbo gas engine will get close in fuel mileage HP to HP does not know what they are talking about. The difference is going to be between 25 to 30% and that's a BUNCH! Just the BTU difference is a bunch and the gasoline engine can't make that up. The diesel is at WOT air wise and the gasoline engine can't make that up.

The gasoline engine makes more power and the diesel is way more efficient. That's just the way it is. That's why my race car has a gas engine in it but it is towed to the track with a diesel engine. :)

Who said a gas engine would get the same mpg as a diesel? HP to HP that would most likely be possible....TQ to TQ not so much as the diesel would obviously have more than any gasser for sure. IF a boosted V8 was designed and done so correctly I bet it could get very close to what a diesel engine gets unloaded in mpg's. Maybe more. Towing who knows. I've owned a few heavy duty diesels before and they were def fuel guzzlers and in my area diesel fuel costs an easy 30% more than gasoline does.When I towed a 5th wheel with the diesel I was lucky to get 11 mpg's. A gasser doing the same would get 8. There goes that 30% fuel cost difference. The diesel would do it easier yes but the gasser still got the job done. I was lucky to get 14 mpg's around town with any diesel I had. Most of this blah blah blah I'm hearing is the same as 10 years ago when Ford introduced the 3.5 ecoboost and 80% of the folks out there said no way it couldn't, it can't its gonna blow up but 10 years later they are proving the "it can't" "it couldn't" wrong :)

ShinerBock wrote:
Let me first state that I am a big fan of the 3.5L Ecoboost engine. I had on in both my personal F150HD and F150 work truck putting over 250k miles combined on with the 3.5L Ecoboost.

The main problem with putting a gasoline turbocharged engine into an SD is heat. Gasoline turbocharged engines create a lot of it when worked hard for a sustained period of time. This is why the 3.5L Ecoboost has an open deck block even though most turbocharged gasoline engines put in cars are closed or semi-closed such as the infamous Supra 2JZ block which is known for handling high psi and over a thousand horsepower. This is needed to carry away the cylinder heat when you are under a sustained high load such as towing. Most gasoline turbocharged engines in cars are not under high loads for a long duration of time like a truck is when towing so a closed or semi-closed will offer enough cooling in these applications.

Most HD/SD V8 gas are iron closed deck designs for a reason. This aides in long term durability in their duty cycle. These engines can have a closed deck block and still remain cool because they are generally at high rpm when under load which is moving air in and out of the cylinders at a high rate which aides in cooling. While turbocharged engines move a lot of air into the cylinder to compress it(which creates more heat), they generally operate at much lower rpm which causing more heat buildup in the cylinders and block.

Diesels are an iron(CGI) closed deck design, but even though diesels are turbocharged like the Ecoboost they retain a lot less heat within their blocks due to their higher thermal efficiency. It is much more efficient at converting thermal energy into mechanical energy so an open/semi-closed deck is not needed to keep them cool under high constant load.

There is much more to it than slapping any ole engine into an SD/HD truck application and calling it good. Many things would have to be considered. I am not saying it will never be done(especially with the new cooling tech that was just discovered) or that the Ecoboost is not a long lasting durable engine. I am just saying that the cooling requirements of an SD/HD duty cycle is probably the reason why Ford has not put a small 4.X V8 Ecoboost in an SD.

Boom! Nailed it!

Let me also say anybody that says a turbo gas engine will get close in fuel mileage HP to HP does not know what they are talking about. The difference is going to be between 25 to 30% and that's a BUNCH! Just the BTU difference is a bunch and the gasoline engine can't make that up. The diesel is at WOT air wise and the gasoline engine can't make that up.

The gasoline engine makes more power and the diesel is way more efficient. That's just the way it is. That's why my race car has a gas engine in it but it is towed to the track with a diesel engine. :)