First drive Ram 1500 diesel

wilber1 wrote:
You can't be serious. A 30-40% difference in mileage makes a difference no matter what you are driving.

A 30% difference in mpg is not the same as a 30% difference in fuel economy. If the fuel is 10-15% more costly and the engine is 10% more costly it eats into that 30-40% mpg difference. Having said that, I'm looking forward to seeing real world performance and mpg numbers of both the new Ram 1500 diesel and the new F150 that is coming out soon. GM, we're waiting for something really new from you guys.

wilber1 wrote:

You can't be serious. A 30-40% difference in mileage makes a difference no matter what you are driving.

See my above post on gas vs Diesel prices in my area. The extra cost over regular is crazy. And since you could get 20-21 on an Ecoboost the #s don't make sense. If Diesel were cheaper it would.

itguy08 wrote:

BillyW wrote:

I would also bet that if the Ecodiesel was in an F150, itguy08 would sing a totally different tune.

Nope. Diesels in cars make sense where they can easily get 50 MPG (TDI's). They make sense in heavy duty rigs where you need power. But in medium applications they don't make as much sense.

I ran the #'s and posted the results. Sure it has good MPG's but the economics of the high cost of Diesel negate any savings.

You can't be serious. A 30-40% difference in mileage makes a difference no matter what you are driving.

BillyW wrote:

I would also bet that if the Ecodiesel was in an F150, itguy08 would sing a totally different tune.

Nope. Diesels in cars make sense where they can easily get 50 MPG (TDI's). They make sense in heavy duty rigs where you need power. But in medium applications they don't make as much sense.

I ran the #'s and posted the results. Sure it has good MPG's but the economics of the high cost of Diesel negate any savings.

Bionic Man wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

parkersdad wrote:
Why do we care about 0-60 times in a truck? I bought mine to tow. Just asking. Mine is a 2500 Hemi though.

0 to 60 times are directly related to power output and that is directly related to how well the truck will tow uphill with a trailer on the tail.

My 6.6 diesel can blaze off some pretty impressive 0 to 60 or 1/4 mile times. With my trailer on the back it does not slow down on any hill that I have found.

My 6.5 diesel is a different story. Slooooooow 0 to 60 and slow 1/4 mile times and 30 MPH or less on big long mountains with the same trailer that my Dmax tows.

So yes, 0-60 is another chunk of data to use on how well a truck will get up to speed with a load on it.

If grinding up a grade at 30 MPH or less is ok with you I can see where this data wouldn't mean much.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Your argument here for the vast majority of 150/1500 buyers will not apply for 2 main reasons.

1st, we are talking about a 15 series truck. The vast majority of these trucks will never pull anything. The ones that do will tow a boat, utility trailer, atvs, etc, trailers that will rarely push 5000 pounds.

2nd, you continue to compare the power to your 6.5. Your 6.5 is in a MUCH heavier truck, with half as many gears. The 8 speed transmission in addition to the lighter weight make your towing comparisons largely invalid.

Take a look at what surveys of prospective buyers value in a new vehicle. HP and torque are rarely at the top, but MPG is. And the MPG number that they calculate out at each fill up will largely outweigh the premium that they pay upfront (which they will probably get back in resale anyway).

The market is certainly big enough to support both technologies - diesel & small displacement turbocharged engines. The ecoboost will likely out sell the ecodiesel. And it will likely win the inevitable races the magazines show pulling up the Eisenhower tunnel. But the ecoboost will not win the MPG competition.

The increasing CAFE standards are forcing the manufactures to change the way they do business. As good of a towing engine the ecoboost is, there is no arguing that it is not a step forward in the MPG race. Similar powered non-turbo charged gasoline engines meet or beat the ecoboost in MPG. The ecodiesel is the new standard in MPG in a 1500 series pickup. That may change when Ford brings the aluminum body F150 to market, but even if it does, they still could get better MPG (and CAFE ratings) by adding a small diesel.

T&P was comparing his 6.5L TD to his Duramax.

I didn't read where he was comparing his 6.5L TD to either the Ecoboost or the Ecodiesel.

Maybe you read something I didn't?

And I would be willing to bet truck buyers as a whole put more emphasis on HP/TQ numbers than what you are realizing.

I would bet that a RAM 1500 Ecodiesel pulling its rated max will easily run 55 - 60 mph up a typical 6% grade.

I would also bet that if the Ecodiesel was in an F150, itguy08 would sing a totally different tune.

Bionic Man wrote:

Take a look at what surveys of prospective buyers value in a new vehicle. HP and torque are rarely at the top, but MPG is. And the MPG number that they calculate out at each fill up will largely outweigh the premium that they pay upfront (which they will probably get back in resale anyway).

I ran the #'s above and with the high premium of Diesel over regular unleaded the savings are pretty much a wash. It would take me almost 5 years to recoup the cost of a Diesel vs my "worst case" in the Ecoboost. It gets even worse if I would have had an Ecoboost without the 3.73's that could get 20-21 MPG on the highway.

I think people will see, say 28 MPG and then look across the street to the gas station and see what I saw today when I got gas:

Gas Prices
Regular - $3.36
Mid Grade - $3.46
Premium - $3.66
Diesel - $4.25

That $0.89/gallon premium for Diesel has a lot of offsetting to do in MPG's...

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

parkersdad wrote:
Why do we care about 0-60 times in a truck? I bought mine to tow. Just asking. Mine is a 2500 Hemi though.

0 to 60 times are directly related to power output and that is directly related to how well the truck will tow uphill with a trailer on the tail.

My 6.6 diesel can blaze off some pretty impressive 0 to 60 or 1/4 mile times. With my trailer on the back it does not slow down on any hill that I have found.

My 6.5 diesel is a different story. Slooooooow 0 to 60 and slow 1/4 mile times and 30 MPH or less on big long mountains with the same trailer that my Dmax tows.

So yes, 0-60 is another chunk of data to use on how well a truck will get up to speed with a load on it.

If grinding up a grade at 30 MPH or less is ok with you I can see where this data wouldn't mean much.

I've said it before, and I will say it again. Your argument here for the vast majority of 150/1500 buyers will not apply for 2 main reasons.

1st, we are talking about a 15 series truck. The vast majority of these trucks will never pull anything. The ones that do will tow a boat, utility trailer, atvs, etc, trailers that will rarely push 5000 pounds.

2nd, you continue to compare the power to your 6.5. Your 6.5 is in a MUCH heavier truck, with half as many gears. The 8 speed transmission in addition to the lighter weight make your towing comparisons largely invalid.

Take a look at what surveys of prospective buyers value in a new vehicle. HP and torque are rarely at the top, but MPG is. And the MPG number that they calculate out at each fill up will largely outweigh the premium that they pay upfront (which they will probably get back in resale anyway).

The market is certainly big enough to support both technologies - diesel & small displacement turbocharged engines. The ecoboost will likely out sell the ecodiesel. And it will likely win the inevitable races the magazines show pulling up the Eisenhower tunnel. But the ecoboost will not win the MPG competition.

The increasing CAFE standards are forcing the manufactures to change the way they do business. As good of a towing engine the ecoboost is, there is no arguing that it is not a step forward in the MPG race. Similar powered non-turbo charged gasoline engines meet or beat the ecoboost in MPG. The ecodiesel is the new standard in MPG in a 1500 series pickup. That may change when Ford brings the aluminum body F150 to market, but even if it does, they still could get better MPG (and CAFE ratings) by adding a small diesel.

otrfun wrote:
It's the **average** truck buyer that determines what sells and doesn't. The average 1/2 ton truck buyer doesn't tow 10,000 lbs, lift their truck with big-tires, tune-it, or put a huge priority on 0-60 times.

IMO, what sets the Ecodiesel apart from all other 1/2 ton trucks are its very high MPG numbers and high torque output at low RPM diesel capability. These two things can save lotsa money and do real work--an excellent combination--and a very easy concept for the average, not-techy, truck buyer to grasp. Preliminary tests tend to confirm it's going to get close to EPA estimates in the realworld without requiring the driver to learn how (see next paragraph). When you put a negative spin on this truck with a mish-mash of it can't do this, can't do that, then you're really missing the big-picture. The average 1/2 ton truck buyer does not go into a dealership with laundry list of must-have requirements, like sub 7 sec 0-60 times, massive tow capacity, and massive payload requirements.

IMO, what sets the Ecoboost apart from all other 1/2 ton trucks are its claimed EPA MPG numbers, high torque output at low RPM's (turbo), and HP. And, to a lesser extent its perceived reliability after several years in production. I've driven the Ecoboost many times. Yes, it has the potential to meet its EPA MPG numbers (16/22), but it requires practice. One has to learn how to stay completely off the boost--for some this is an unreasonable way to drive. Personally, I think what really sells the Ecoboost to the average truck buyer is their first test drive. Many folks have never driven a vehicle with a turbo before. For many it's an eye-opening experience to have nearly max torque available below 2k. It gives the impression of unlimited power--a very powerful and addictive first impression, and one of the big reasons the Ecoboost has been such a success IMO.

My two cents . . .

Very well said.

Turtle n Peeps wrote:

parkersdad wrote:
Why do we care about 0-60 times in a truck? I bought mine to tow. Just asking. Mine is a 2500 Hemi though.

0 to 60 times are directly related to power output and that is directly related to how well the truck will tow uphill with a trailer on the tail.

True, but my guess is the great majority of these trucks will spend less than 20% of their time towing and even less time being operated in the RPM range where that extra power is produced.