Ford 2.7 Ecoboost - power question

A lot of the misunderstandings seem to persist because of old gas engine stereotypes from 20 years ago. Compare a turbo gas to a turbo diesel, and other than the staggering price difference, and peak power rpm, they both get the job done in a similar manner, all else being equal (hp, trans, truck, etc).

bobx2 wrote:
As for those who sit and type about what they read, and how HP is HP, and there would be no difference between the two different engines, thank you. It gives me a good laugh. If you were actually out pulling the pass I am talking about, or any others for that matter, you would have a little better understanding, and not be talking about that which you apparently don't know. It's the combination of torque and HP.

If you actually READ what I wrote instead of just sit there and laugh, perhaps you'd learn something.

Just so you know, LONG before us engineers go and "pull a pass", everything starts with calculations and simulations. And speaking of passes, I've pulled all kinds of passes on everything from a Hayabusa to a 130,000 lbs b-train to a hydrogen fuelcell prototype.

Lastly, no such thing as a "combination" of hp and torque. Hp and torque always exist together, like space and time, so long there's an important coupler - rpm. Or in technical terms, angular velocity.

Tystevens, thanks for your input. It's nice to have some first person testimony.

I think the main things missing are these. A HP is a HP, no if and or but about it. However, how that HP is developed could differ wildly. Turbocharged motors produce HP earlier in the RPM curve, namely due to building boost and ingesting more air and fuel earlier (this is true with Diesels and Gasolines). This is why an Ecoboost which has less horsepower than a HEMI can pass that truck in a race, or when Top Gear did a 727 tow with a HEMI RAM versus Ecoboost Ford. HEMI makes more power ultimately, however the Ecoboost has a wider range of RPM where it's superior to the HEMI. The ecoboost always built more power earlier than the N/A motors, so they could get a leap on the competition. There is far more area under the horsepower curve of an ecoboost versus a 5.0 V8. They're rated at 5HP apart, however at 3,000rpm on the dyno plot @ pickuptrucks.com, there is a 50hp differential and only a 15hp differential of peak hp. Torque build is what effects that horsepower curve and that's what the engineers work with.

Take it for what it's worth.

bobx2 wrote:

tragusa3 wrote:
bobx2, I just pulled Eisenhower. Granted, not with 10k. No one would have waited for me at the top. It went up at the speed limit, less than 2500rpm. Never tried to speed, but could have, in a hurry, if I had chosen.

Well I would hope you could pull 3,500 lbs. up at the speed limit. ;)
As for those who sit and type about what they read, and how HP is HP, and there would be no difference between the two different engines, thank you. It gives me a good laugh. If you were actually out pulling the pass I am talking about, or any others for that matter, you would have a little better understanding, and not be talking about that which you apparently don't know. It's the combination of torque and HP. It will never be a straight shot with nothing slowing you down and taking away your momentum. You have to deal with slower traffic, like gassers pulling big RV's up the hill, and big rigs drag racing side by side at about 15 mph. I'm not bragging that I have the best tow rig on the road, I'm just saying that no ego-boost will pull the same load up the same pass at the same speed and as easily as a diesel truck. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to argue about this all day. I live here and see it ALL the time. Enough said, time to move on. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, that's okay. I know better. :W

Living in Colorado, and pulling that pass multiple times per year, I have to agree with this. LOTS of variables at play here, and I am not an engineer, but I do know what my experience is.

I will agree with the other posters however that the EcoBoost (or most any other engine) will likely get the load to the top of the hill. And, in the grand scheme of things, cresting the pass with a higher top speed, or saving a few seconds (or maybe even a few minutes) in the time it takes to get from the base to the summit is not significant.

It's your money, buy what you want.

bobx2 wrote:

tragusa3 wrote:
bobx2, I just pulled Eisenhower. Granted, not with 10k. No one would have waited for me at the top. It went up at the speed limit, less than 2500rpm. Never tried to speed, but could have, in a hurry, if I had chosen.

Well I would hope you could pull 3,500 lbs. up at the speed limit. ;)
As for those who sit and type about what they read, and how HP is HP, and there would be no difference between the two different engines, thank you. It gives me a good laugh. If you were actually out pulling the pass I am talking about, or any others for that matter, you would have a little better understanding, and not be talking about that which you apparently don't know. It's the combination of torque and HP. It will never be a straight shot with nothing slowing you down and taking away your momentum. You have to deal with slower traffic, like gassers pulling big RV's up the hill, and big rigs drag racing side by side at about 15 mph. I'm not bragging that I have the best tow rig on the road, I'm just saying that no ego-boost will pull the same load up the same pass at the same speed and as easily as a diesel truck. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to argue about this all day. I live here and see it ALL the time. Enough said, time to move on. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, that's okay. I know better. :W

So you think you're the only one who has pulled I70 before? Have you pulled with an Ecoboost? If not, how do you "know better?"

I have had the good fortune of owning both a Duramax and an Ecoboost. I pulled I70 from Denver to the western end in Utah with with my Duramax. It pulled great, no question. It was a great truck, probably the best vehicle I've ever owned. You could say I'm a fan!

And I've got an Ecoboost in the driveway now, and I'm telling you that, based on my experience with both trucks (including interstate over 8k ft and 2-lane over 11k ft elevation), the EB would keep up with my Duramax pulling the same 6500 lb trailer.

tragusa3 wrote:
bobx2, I just pulled Eisenhower. Granted, not with 10k. No one would have waited for me at the top. It went up at the speed limit, less than 2500rpm. Never tried to speed, but could have, in a hurry, if I had chosen.

Well I would hope you could pull 3,500 lbs. up at the speed limit. ;)
As for those who sit and type about what they read, and how HP is HP, and there would be no difference between the two different engines, thank you. It gives me a good laugh. If you were actually out pulling the pass I am talking about, or any others for that matter, you would have a little better understanding, and not be talking about that which you apparently don't know. It's the combination of torque and HP. It will never be a straight shot with nothing slowing you down and taking away your momentum. You have to deal with slower traffic, like gassers pulling big RV's up the hill, and big rigs drag racing side by side at about 15 mph. I'm not bragging that I have the best tow rig on the road, I'm just saying that no ego-boost will pull the same load up the same pass at the same speed and as easily as a diesel truck. Take it or leave it, I'm not going to argue about this all day. I live here and see it ALL the time. Enough said, time to move on. Go ahead and tell me how wrong I am, that's okay. I know better. :W

bobx2, I just pulled Eisenhower. Granted, not with 10k. No one would have waited for me at the top. It went up at the speed limit, less than 2500rpm. Never tried to speed, but could have, in a hurry, if I had chosen.

RCMAN46 wrote:

Bruce H. wrote:
and the flatter the torque curve, the flatter the horsepower curve.

Bruce

Take closer look at torque and horsepower curves and you will find if the torque curve is flat the horsepower curve will not be flat.

You're right, of course, a horsepower curve is never flat. Poor choice of words on my part. By "flatter", I was trying to convey the idea that the horsepower curve will be less steep with a flat torque curve than with a peaky torque curve.

Bruce

bobx2 wrote:
Lots of theories here on what does what, but hook 10,000 lbs behind my 345 HP Duramax and 10,000 lbs behind your ecoboost, and I will stop and wait for you when I get up to the Eisenhower Tunnel at the top of the pass. I will drive the speed limit, and you will wish you could. Argue all you want, but I have never had a gasser pulling a trailer pass me going up the mountain. I don't "race" up the hill, I just follow the speed limits.

Nothing "magical" about diesel. A hp is a hp, and as per Issac Newton: speed is power divided by force (or velocity * force = power).

The only reason diesels are typically faster per horsepower is due to 2 things: 1) forced induction, no loss of hp at altitude, and 2) less than ideal real world transmissions, which favors fat torque curves.

Take away the 2 advantages, i.e. a turbo diesel and turbo gas hooked up to a electrical drivetrain (think locomotive), and a 365 hp diesel and 365 hp gas will perform IDENTICAL.

For that reason, locomotives NEVER officially rate their prime mover's torque. It's a useless figure.