Forum Discussion
122 Replies
- Which do you think is a more solvable: recycling ICE exhaust or recycling used lithium batteries? Which is more likely to have increased value in the future to drive research on how to reclaim and recycle: ICE exhaust or lithium?
Recycling used lithium batteries is not a new problem with the advent of EVs; many electronic devices use Li batteries (check your phone). Timmo! wrote:
OK and compare that to the recycling of gasoline.time2roll wrote:
And these items are not burned to power the vehicle. Eventually they will be recycled and reused in the next vehicle or some other use. Gasoline & diesel is never recycled, only burned.
I wish that was true---from that same article
Recycling Lithium-Ion
In Australia, only two percent of the country’s 3,300 metric tons of lithium-ion waste is recycled. Unwanted MP3 players and laptops often end up in landfills, where metals from the electrodes and ionic fluids from the electrolyte can leak into the environment.
Because lithium cathodes degrade over time, they cannot be placed into new batteries. Researchers are using robotics technology developed for nuclear power plants to find ways to remove and dismantle lithium-ion cells from electric vehicles. There have been a number of fires at recycling plants where lithium-ion batteries have been stored improperly, or disguised as lead-acid batteries and put through a crusher. Not only have these batteries burned at recycling plants, but auto makers are seeing battery-related fires leading to vehicle recalls and safety probes. In October, U.S. safety regulators opened a probe into more than 77,000 electric Chevy Bolts after two owners complained of fires that appeared to have begun under the back seat where the battery is located.
Because manufacturers are secretive about what goes into their batteries, it makes it harder to recycle them properly. Currently, recovered cells are usually shredded, creating a mixture of metal that can then be separated using pyrometallurgical techniques—burning—which wastes a lot of the lithium. Alternative techniques, including biological recycling where bacteria are used to process the materials, and hydrometallurgical techniques which use solutions of chemicals in a similar way to how lithium is extracted from brine are being investigated.
It is estimated that between 2021 and 2030, about 12.85 million tons of EV lithium ion batteries will go offline worldwide, and over 10 million tons of lithium, cobalt, nickel and manganese will be mined for new batteries. China is being pushed to increase battery recycling since repurposed batteries could be used as backup power systems for China’s 5G stations or reused in shared e-bikes, which would save 63 million tons of carbon emissions from new battery manufacturing.
Pyrometallurgical (aka smelting) for nearly 100% efficiency is performed at ultra high temps (1,550° C).
On edit--for a good unbiased read of lithium battery recycling https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2020/gc/d0gc02745f#cit10pitch wrote:
Gosh What a bunch of maroons you are.
Stupid stupid stupid.
Of course if a car is operated in an are served by coal generation , well naturally it will be coal fired, same for a car in a Hydro region a natural gas region or nuclear solar or wind.
What an idiotic piece of propaganda.
What I don't understand is if you don't like EV's don't buy one. Why are you "against" or "don't believe" that they are a good choice.
How about just shut the hell up, and don't worry about it. It is no skin off your ass!
That's fine with the don't buy but the Politically correct Greenies are forcing us into it.GDS-3950BH wrote:
pianotuna wrote:
If a highway has coils installed there would be no reason to stop to refuel an electric vehicle at all.
LOL, let's dig up all roads and install coils. A tall order seeing that it's almost impossible to keep up with maintaining the road surface itself, let alone burying coils along with the infrastructure needed to feed them.
Would it not be easier to mill in slots, or how about installing overhead catenary and equip EVs with trolley poles?
Where is Nicola Tesla when we need him and his wireless electricity?
Just caught the end of a commercial for some new brand EV, forget the name, reservations being taken at the low low price of $69K and change.
When the cost of a KWH of power triples you EV proponent knuckleheads on here will be the first ones bellyaching.
How aboot we let em do it in Canada first, EH.dodge guy wrote:
Unfortunately this is how most people view owning an electric car.
EXCELLENT!!!!!!!!time2roll wrote:
And these items are not burned to power the vehicle. Eventually they will be recycled and reused in the next vehicle or some other use. Gasoline & diesel is never recycled, only burned.
I wish that was true---from that same article
Recycling Lithium-Ion
In Australia, only two percent of the country’s 3,300 metric tons of lithium-ion waste is recycled. Unwanted MP3 players and laptops often end up in landfills, where metals from the electrodes and ionic fluids from the electrolyte can leak into the environment.
Because lithium cathodes degrade over time, they cannot be placed into new batteries. Researchers are using robotics technology developed for nuclear power plants to find ways to remove and dismantle lithium-ion cells from electric vehicles. There have been a number of fires at recycling plants where lithium-ion batteries have been stored improperly, or disguised as lead-acid batteries and put through a crusher. Not only have these batteries burned at recycling plants, but auto makers are seeing battery-related fires leading to vehicle recalls and safety probes. In October, U.S. safety regulators opened a probe into more than 77,000 electric Chevy Bolts after two owners complained of fires that appeared to have begun under the back seat where the battery is located.
Because manufacturers are secretive about what goes into their batteries, it makes it harder to recycle them properly. Currently, recovered cells are usually shredded, creating a mixture of metal that can then be separated using pyrometallurgical techniques—burning—which wastes a lot of the lithium. Alternative techniques, including biological recycling where bacteria are used to process the materials, and hydrometallurgical techniques which use solutions of chemicals in a similar way to how lithium is extracted from brine are being investigated.
It is estimated that between 2021 and 2030, about 12.85 million tons of EV lithium ion batteries will go offline worldwide, and over 10 million tons of lithium, cobalt, nickel and manganese will be mined for new batteries. China is being pushed to increase battery recycling since repurposed batteries could be used as backup power systems for China’s 5G stations or reused in shared e-bikes, which would save 63 million tons of carbon emissions from new battery manufacturing.
Pyrometallurgical (aka smelting) for nearly 100% efficiency is performed at ultra high temps (1,550° C).
On edit--for a good unbiased read of lithium battery recycling https://pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlehtml/2020/gc/d0gc02745f#cit10Timmo! wrote:
And these items are not burned to power the vehicle. Eventually they will be recycled and reused in the next vehicle or some other use. Gasoline & diesel is never recycled, only burned.
I'm a simple guy living in a complex world...so help me understand,
Elon Musk said--
This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution.
"move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy".
But to manufacture the car's batteries, requires the mining of cobalt, nickel, manganese and lithium.- I'm a simple guy living in a complex world...so help me understand,
Elon Musk said--
This is because the overarching purpose of Tesla Motors (and the reason I am funding the company) is to help expedite the move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy towards a solar electric economy, which I believe to be the primary, but not exclusive, sustainable solution.
"move from a mine-and-burn hydrocarbon economy".
But to manufacture the car's batteries, requires the mining of cobalt, nickel, manganese and lithium.
Processing of Lithium Ore
The lithium extraction process uses a lot of water—approximately 500,000 gallons per metric ton of lithium. To extract lithium, miners drill a hole in salt flats and pump salty, mineral-rich brine to the surface. After several months the water evaporates, leaving a mixture of manganese, potassium, borax and lithium salts which is then filtered and placed into another evaporation pool. After between 12 and 18 months of this process, the mixture is filtered sufficiently that lithium carbonate can be extracted.
South America’s Lithium Triangle, which covers parts of Argentina, Bolivia and Chile, holds more than half the world’s supply of the metal beneath its salt flats. But it is also one of the driest places on earth. In Chile’s Salar de Atacama, mining activities consumed 65 percent of the region’s water, which is having a large impact on local farmers to the point that some communities have to get water elsewhere.
As in Tibet, there is the potential for toxic chemicals to leak from the evaporation pools into the water supply including hydrochloric acid, which is used in the processing of lithium, and waste products that are filtered out of the brine. In Australia and North America, lithium is mined from rock using chemicals to extract it into a useful form. In Nevada, researchers found impacts on fish as far as 150 miles downstream from a lithium processing operation.
Lithium extraction harms the soil and causes air contamination. In Argentina’s Salar de Hombre Muerto, residents believe that lithium operations contaminated streams used by humans and livestock and for crop irrigation. In Chile, the landscape is marred by mountains of discarded salt and canals filled with contaminated water with an unnatural blue hue. According to Guillermo Gonzalez, a lithium battery expert from the University of Chile, “This isn’t a green solution – it’s not a solution at all.”
China is among the five top countries with the most lithium resources and it has been buying stakes in mining operations in Australia and South America where most of the world’s lithium reserves are found. China’s Tianqi Lithium owns 51 percent of the world’s largest lithium reserve in Australia, giving it a controlling interest. In 2018, the company became the second-largest shareholder in Sociedad Química y Minera—the largest lithium producer in Chile. Another Chinese company, Ganfeng Lithium, has a long-term agreement to underwrite all lithium raw materials produced by Australia’s Mount Marion mine—the world’s second-biggest, high-grade lithium reserve.
https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/renewable/the-environmental-impact-of-lithium-batteries/ GDS-3950BH wrote:
When the cost of a KWH of power triples you EV proponent knuckleheads on here will be the first ones bellyaching.
It is more likely to drop as more and more renewable energy comes "on line".
https://www.in2013dollars.com/Electricity/price-inflationferndaleflyer wrote:
95 percent of cobalt comes from China. Got to have it for those EV batteries
Nope. It’s not. And cobalt is used in the refinement of gasoline.
