Lippert frames
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
So, what is a Lippert frame?
Forum Discussion
JCR-1 wrote:
I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.
Screen shot taken directly from the Lippert Towable Chassis website ...
This guy sure doesn't look like a robot to me. :W
BTW, what unemployment? :h ... these days the RV industry in and around Goshen can't find enough people to work in their plants. I doubt "skill" has much to do with it. ;)LVJJJ wrote:
deltabravo wrote:
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?
If you look at the picture of mine in the post earlier, it has a sticker on it.
As to whether they are any good or not, as you can see, there are opinions all over the map.deltabravo wrote:
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)
Well duh. I know it was a stupid question, but was wondering why they seem to be not so good, understand now.
Still have not heard if my Trail Cruiser is built on one, or how do you identify one?- Here is a photo of a welded "I-beam" frame. In this case, the welding is not as smooth as a baby's rear. The rust line is a crack from the cross member welded to the opposite side and is stressing the thin vertical member. I think you will find that the mills actually supply the steel on large coils. The coiled steel is run thru straighteners and into a machine that does the welding.
LVJJJ wrote:
Been towing for 30 years, but never heard of a Lippert frame. Seems like most of the comments are negative.
So, what is a Lippert frame?
It's a frame made by Lippert Components Inc (aka LCI)- I think most all these products today are welded by robots.. not unskilled laborers.. hence unemployment.
Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.Ralph Cramden wrote:
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
I doubt you are wrong - sounds like an entirely reasonable explanation to me as it's clear you know far more about this subject than any of us! Thanks for the detail - doesn't change the fact that the frame on my own Coachmen has failed but at least I have some better understanding why it failed.Huntindog wrote:
I do not know what "rolled" means. I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs.
I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame.
It is what I consider to be a "normal" I beam.
Simply put there are two methods used to make a structural shape. Hot rolled or cold rolled. Specifically in relation to an H or I which are a complex shape, there are two ways to make them. Hot rolled is steel goes in one end of a plant, and an I or H comes out the other. Its then shipped to a fabricator who cuts it, drills it, fabricates it.
The other way to make an H or I, is you take 3 pieces of plate or sheet, and weld them together. That's it, two options. You can cold roll a C, or an angle, or a Z or a bar, and a lot of other shapes, but you can not cold roll an H or I. Those are the simple versions. This Article explains it better than I can.
All of that said I am not saying an engineered/machine welded member is a bad thing, as I have built a couple million square feet of pre-engineered industrial facilities. Almost every beam, frame or column, and almost every structural element in one, is engineered and made from machine welded shapes. We have hung some overhead cranes from them at times. Its all about it being engineered correctly.
I don't know how one can say "I DO know what welded looks like. I have seen that on many TTs. I DO NOT have a welded frame rail frame."
Frankly if the equipment used to weld those 3 pieces together is maintained and set up correctly, you're not going to be able to tell visually as that weld will be smooth as a babies rear end. I've seen a few of those machines at some of the fabricators that actually can grind the welds as part of the process, and once painted you need to no what you're looking at to tell. But it can usually be determined simply by "size".
Here is why I think you're mistaken and the 10" high frame rail in your picture is a machine welded piece, and not a conventional hot rolled member. They make hot rolled H shapes (we call them a wide flange or W) or I shapes (A Jr / I, or S), only in specific readily availible sizes and weights. Going by your picture the flange width is roughly 2-1/2" wide. I determined that by comparison to the two fittings installed on the black tank. One is 1-1/2", the other 3".
There is no H or I which is hot rolled that a company like Lippert could buy from a hot mill, that would be those dimensions in a 10" height. It simply does not exist unless its a custom hot rolled shape and cost would not typically allow that.
In your picture you have a 10" height, a 2-1/2" flange width, and a 1/4" thickness both at flange and web based on the measurements you took.
Here is what you can get from a hot mill.
There are a couple dozen made with a 10" size in a wide flange, but none including the lightest which is a W10X12(lbs per ft), has a flange width smaller than 3.960 inches. Then they go up from there. The only size in a wide flange that has anywhere close to 1/4" average thickness at both flange and web is a W10X15, with a 4.00 flange width. The web is .230 and the flange is .269
There are only two readily available sizes in a Jr/I/S with a 10" height.
S10X25.4 or 10.000X4.661, The flange is 4.661 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .311
S10X35 or 10.000X4.944, The flange is 4.944 wide, and the thicknesses are flange .491 / web .594
That's why I think your main rail is an engineered / fabricated / machine welded shape. That is unless Lippert is having hot rolled shapes custom made at great expense, or own a hot mill and making their own. Not sure why they would want to. The size is not available unless its fabricated. Maybe I'm wrong.
sgfrye wrote:
I gotta sorta agree with this. My Sabre has a stout frame because Sabre requested it from Lippert. Sabre is no longer in the TT business. Could be that they had a hard time selling them for enough to turn a profit with some of the upgraded stuff they were building.SoundGuy wrote:
SidecarFlip wrote:
Build them cheap, stack them deep and build them with unskilled welders. Recipe for disaster.
Why would you expect anything else, after all YOU asked for it - "you" meaning you and I and all the rest of us who want as much trailer as we can get for as little cost as possible. That's the recipe for disaster. :W
X2 on this. in general the public who buy these products want cheaper prices on everything . in the manufacturing industry no matter what it is. appliances, autos, rv's the factors going into the retail price involve are complex but material cost, labor,advertising, warranty coverages are what sets the prices.SoundGuy wrote:
My 2014 Coachmen Freedom Express has a pressed together Lippert frame that has cracked near the rear tires on each side. :M
As to the OP's question, my understanding is that newer models now use a different frame that shouldn't exhibit this frame cracking problem that have plagued so many Freedom Express owners.GrandpaKip wrote:
If you truly believe this, then why in the world do you keep recommending this trailer?SoundGuy wrote:
Surely this is self explanatory! :SGrandpaKip wrote:
My apologies. However, your understanding is just that (an opinion). If you had stated when, where and what Coachmen had done, that would be fine for all the trailers that have been constructed since then. But the fact still remains that you have touted this trailer many times without caveat.
As I see it, the main concern would be with new members of this forum looking at used trailers. With your recommendation, they might be led to believe this is a great camper. A problem with cracked frames should eliminate this trailer from any consideration.
I don't believe I've ever "touted this trailer many times without caveat" but if asked, sure I'd suggest others consider it. Why not? - it's a great floor plan for an adult couple, offers pretty well all the amenities one would want in a travel trailer, it's easy to tow and easy to park on pretty well any campsite. Is it perfect? ... surely not, never have claimed it was, no more than any other trailer. It's a mass produced product built for the masses, just as most other trailers are. Yes, my particular 2014 has a cracked frame but it is NOT on any NHSTA recall list and if you had actually read the content of that recall you'd know that only ~ 1000 units of other models built during a specific time period are subject to that recall. Is my 192RBS which is not part of this recall a fluke? ... don't know, but I'm not aware of any other 192RBS models exhibiting this problem. Regardless, it is my "understanding" that newer models from 2016 onward use a different frame which shouldn't exhibit this same issue anyway. FWIW, my wife & I recently discussed the idea of actually trading our 2014 for a new 2018 192RBS as it offers a number of improvements such as a full length queen bed and vent over the main cabin but the hit in depreciation really doesn't make this practical, especially when our 2014 serves the purpose just fine. :B
