New Tires

All I am saying, is that the local LEO's DO NOT follow the door sticker from a law, or operating from a safe and sane standpoint. I've had too many tell me this. Yes I have been pulled over, weighed, checked etc in my rigs. MANY times over the door sticker. Not once have I been cited, fined or equal. As I am with in the legal means from which the LEO enforces the laws. If I am unsafe a lb over that door sticker, so be it. I doubt that I am frankly. I've seen rigs under the door stickers that are unsafe! ie trailers waging back and forth. THere is a law stating a trailer moving more than IIRC 12 to 18" one way or the other is illegal.

I'll follow the known legal laws the leo has to follow. Upgrading to higher load tires to gain a higher payload is not illegal. Nor is adding more spring pack etc.

Marty

blt2ski wrote:
Larry,

Now you are talking civil, vs legal. Legal is what an LEO charges you on, jail or fines can occur of out of the black and white laws as they are written. Civil on the other hand, have a LOT of gray in them. There is not always a 100% this is law. Only what a person thinks a law should be etc.

The local CVEO/LEO's that I have had "weight laws" of washington state, have ALL been very clear, manufacture door stickers etc are nothing more than warranty/performance recommendations. THer is nothing illegal about being over those amounts, as long as you have a paid for license/registration that is greater than your current weight, along with you are not over the Federal BRidge Laws for max weight on ANY given road!

This is what the LEO enforces, not door sticker rules.

My 2000 C2500 has an 8K registration, I am legal to 8K lbs gvwr, NOT the 8600 on the door sticker from a legal standpoint. If I am pulled over at 8500 lbs, I would get an over weight ticket! I would need to buy a 10K registration, then I would be legal to the door sticker, along with to 10K lbs.

LEO's have a field test they do to determine if your brakes are legal or not. If you fail this test, the rig is red tagged, and not allowed to go anywhere. You have to either get the rig towed, flatbed hauled to a shop, or fix it on the side of the road. You then have to call the LEO out to verify the rig is fixed before taking it out on the road. An LEO has no way of knowing if your rig is passing the FMVSS laws or not. Those tests go beyond what they have the ability to check on the hwy with you pulled over, so they have there own field tests that have passed local and state courts.

Civil court is a totally different animal as you are talking about.

ALL of the powered RV's with tag axels on them, those tag axels along with the added frame to make the rearend longer were added AT the RV manufacture. It is up to the END body user to install the door sticker. Our pickups and vans are finished at the factory, hence why they have door stickers from the manufacture. But Fleetwood has to put the final door sticker on the cutaway vans they use for class C rigs. As such, they can use the max of the axels, or the reduced gvwr that tha frame manufacture uses. OR if they add a tag, then they can use the max axel rating for all three axels if they wish.

Most dump trucks you see with drop axels, ALL have been added after market. There is nothing illegal about modifying a rig, except if you go beyond some requirements. A lifted pickup for example that has headlights or a bumper too far off the ground can get cited and red tagged.

Marty

Again you are failing to understand what my original post in this thread was addressing and said. I did not frame it in any sort of strict law referende, but from the safety standpoint which is what the quote I referred to was saying they could ignore the gvwr as long as they were "SAFE" and my point was that exceeding the GVWR because of that certification sticker was violating that safety standard.

If you believe operating a vehicle in an "UNSAFE" considtion is legal then so be it ... I do not believe that to be a responsible way to operate a vehicle on the public highways.

I only mentioned the civil aspect since that is and should be something one should be concerned with and probably more so than getting some much less meaningless "TICKET".

Larry

Larry,

Now you are talking civil, vs legal. Legal is what an LEO charges you on, jail or fines can occur of out of the black and white laws as they are written. Civil on the other hand, have a LOT of gray in them. There is not always a 100% this is law. Only what a person thinks a law should be etc.

The local CVEO/LEO's that I have had "weight laws" of washington state, have ALL been very clear, manufacture door stickers etc are nothing more than warranty/performance recommendations. THer is nothing illegal about being over those amounts, as long as you have a paid for license/registration that is greater than your current weight, along with you are not over the Federal BRidge Laws for max weight on ANY given road!

This is what the LEO enforces, not door sticker rules.

My 2000 C2500 has an 8K registration, I am legal to 8K lbs gvwr, NOT the 8600 on the door sticker from a legal standpoint. If I am pulled over at 8500 lbs, I would get an over weight ticket! I would need to buy a 10K registration, then I would be legal to the door sticker, along with to 10K lbs.

LEO's have a field test they do to determine if your brakes are legal or not. If you fail this test, the rig is red tagged, and not allowed to go anywhere. You have to either get the rig towed, flatbed hauled to a shop, or fix it on the side of the road. You then have to call the LEO out to verify the rig is fixed before taking it out on the road. An LEO has no way of knowing if your rig is passing the FMVSS laws or not. Those tests go beyond what they have the ability to check on the hwy with you pulled over, so they have there own field tests that have passed local and state courts.

Civil court is a totally different animal as you are talking about.

ALL of the powered RV's with tag axels on them, those tag axels along with the added frame to make the rearend longer were added AT the RV manufacture. It is up to the END body user to install the door sticker. Our pickups and vans are finished at the factory, hence why they have door stickers from the manufacture. But Fleetwood has to put the final door sticker on the cutaway vans they use for class C rigs. As such, they can use the max of the axels, or the reduced gvwr that tha frame manufacture uses. OR if they add a tag, then they can use the max axel rating for all three axels if they wish.

Most dump trucks you see with drop axels, ALL have been added after market. There is nothing illegal about modifying a rig, except if you go beyond some requirements. A lifted pickup for example that has headlights or a bumper too far off the ground can get cited and red tagged.

Marty

Bedlam wrote:
Brakes are identical on F250 and F350 SRW trucks. Upgrading mine to the capacity of a 350 is matter of wheels. the only difference you will then see in the build sheet is the emblem, rear axle block and u-bolts. Even ambulance chasers would have hard time proving the equipment was not up to the task. You're bringing in way too much FUD and may want to cross-check what you post.

Again you are missing the entire point I'm making. That certification sticker is based on the vehicle as built and tested at the GVWR listed and things like tires and their size also have an impact on braking results. The braking performance and hence the "SAFETY" performance of an F350 loaded to it's GVWR is not going to be the same as an F250 loaded to the same GVWR if it's over that which it GVWR has been tested to.

It matters no what you do to your truck with wheels, tires, etc. those numbers for the "SAFE OPERTION" certification haven't changed and "THAT'S A FACT" ... like it or not and as I continue to say you can rationalize things anyway you want, but it doesn't change the underlying facts and numbers.

Larry

blt2ski wrote:
Sorry Larry, Bert is correct. There is not a law around that refers to the vehicle door sticker. You legal wt is what you have paid for! as long as it is below the road bed design limits. This goes back into the late 1700s to early 1800;s in some parts of the US, Way the hecko before manufactures door stickers!

Bert,

Have not seen you in a bit, you got rid of the chebby?!?!?!?! Look at some 19.5" tires too. You can get a 245-70-19.5, same diam as a 285-75-16 or 285-70-17, an LRG will net you about 5500 IIRC. Have not driven the IHC for a bit, so do not remember what I have on the sidewall. If you need a good traction, look at the Michelin XDE M+S....I can't believe I am recomending michiblows.......oh dear oh me oh my! a low point here.......oh dear oh me oh my.....

Marty

Your both missing the point, no where did I mention that that sticker was somehow written into a law ... it's about operating a vehicle in a safe manner and operating a vehicle outside the limits contained on that sticker and this safety related requirement that I was addressing is where you run afoul from a legal standpoint as was pointed out in the quote I referenced in my initial post here. Such things as wreckless driving, and a host of other laws could come into play. Anyone who is advocating operating a vehicle beyond what is on that sticker is IMO treading on dangerous ground especially when it comes to civil proceedings because of injuries, etc.

To restate those numbers on that FMVSS sticker legally establish the maximum "SAFE" total weight for that vehicle and operating a vehicle in excess of those numbers is doing so in an "UNSAFE" manner and there is where a host of "LAWS" could be applied to cover this area. As always it's up to the courts to determine ultimately what is or is not legal.

Larry

Larry

Larry

Brakes are identical on F250 and F350 SRW trucks. Upgrading mine to the capacity of a 350 is matter of wheels. the only difference you will then see in the build sheet is the emblem, rear axle block and u-bolts. Even ambulance chasers would have hard time proving the equipment was not up to the task. You're bringing in way too much FUD and may want to cross-check what you post.

Bedlam wrote:
That's a very shortsighted view. I were to remove a leaf spring or put on bling low profile wheels that are only rated for 2500 lbs, you feel that the vehicle is still rated for the sticker.

Conversely, if I increase capacity of the weakest components, why wouldn't capacities increase?

I just hope you realize legal is different than practical...

Not shortsighted at all ... until you do something about improving braking performance you haven't addressed that "SAFETY RELATED" rating which is the "MAIN" item governing that "LEGAL" certifcation. As I said one can rationalize what they might "THINK" they are doing anyway they want ... but IMO they are really only fooling themselves and again IMO "FOOLISHLY" to boot. This type of thinking and actions is what makes civil jury cases go in favor of those thinking they can do whatever they want w/o consequences.

Larry

Sorry Larry, Bert is correct. There is not a law around that refers to the vehicle door sticker. You legal wt is what you have paid for! as long as it is below the road bed design limits. This goes back into the late 1700s to early 1800;s in some parts of the US, Way the hecko before manufactures door stickers!

Bert,

Have not seen you in a bit, you got rid of the chebby?!?!?!?! Look at some 19.5" tires too. You can get a 245-70-19.5, same diam as a 285-75-16 or 285-70-17, an LRG will net you about 5500 IIRC. Have not driven the IHC for a bit, so do not remember what I have on the sidewall. If you need a good traction, look at the Michelin XDE M+S....I can't believe I am recomending michiblows.......oh dear oh me oh my! a low point here.......oh dear oh me oh my.....

Marty

LarryJM wrote:
You can think or rationalize the legal meaning of GVWR anyway you want, but I contend that the GVWR on that FMVSS sticker on your door is a certification as to the "MIMIMUM SAFETY" standards for performance of your vehicles braking system and exceeding that number means you are "NOT OPERATING YOUR VEHICLE IN A SAFE MANNER".

Larry

A few years ago, I tried to find out what the law said in pretty well every jurisdiction in the US and Canada about vehicle loading. In every case, I found that there is NO reference to the manufacturer's GVWR for any vehicle.

I'm not trying to persuade people to violate that rating, I'm just pointing out that there is no law that I could find (and there were a few jurisdictions that used to base their laws on the manufacturer's GVWR but had rescinded those laws) that used the GVWR as a base. All I could find was vague references to tire ratings. If the load on your vehicle exceeded the rating of your tire(s), you were considered to be operating an unsafe vehicle. As long as you didn't exceed the tire rating - or that the vehicle was loaded in such a way as to render control-ability questionable such as a seriously tail heavy vehicle making steering ineffective - then you were good to go. It didn't matter if you exceeded the GVWR of the vehicle at all.

Bert

Grit dog wrote:
Toyo MTs are 3950lb for the 295-70-17 size. Not sure about other sizes but that's about the closest to 4k if we for a 17" tire.
I have them on my Ram and so far they are a great tire. Not great great life since I got them siped and hauled a 4klb camper but they are solid. Have beat them up pretty bad on rocky roads with the camper and no flats.

I'll have to have another look, then. Thanks for the info.

Bert