NON Lippert frame TT

SooperDaddy wrote:
The Norco/BAL Frame refered to by My Red Racer used by Jayco and some others is a whole different animal! It's a sectioned ultralight weight stamped steel frame, built almost like a unibodied car. Not welded, but "Huck Bolted" like a railroad uses...no heat used to hold the stamped girders together. Just some bolts spun into the tight holes with high speed.

http://norcoind.com/bal/products/oem/ultraframe/index.shtml

That's an interesting way of making a frame. I'm not saying it's better, worse or the same as compared to other methods regarding strength and usability, but I would voice this opinion: the processes of properly coating for corrosion resistance is going to be critical for long life. Those of us who have worked on some unibody cars that are a decade or two old that have seen rusted out body structures have seen that often these things simply become scrap because of the difficulty in trying to refurb the rotted out sections.

For me personally, I think I will stay with a simple, time-proven I-beam frame travel trailer. Under mine, it's easy enough to inspect and repaint any areas that have any issues ( mine is open underbody ).
And yes, mine is Lippert, ( as are the axles ) and so far is functioning the way it's supposed to. I have touched up some paint on mine, mostly on the a-frame and the left to right leading edge piece that have taken hits from road stones. Rustoleum has worked well on the parts I have re-painted.

n7bsn wrote:
Part of "why" Lippert has a bad rep is the big deal they made almost a year ago when they announced that -now- all the welders were certified.
Now, not being certified does not mean you are a "bad" welder, but if the company doesn't require certification, you don't know.

Yeah, but that assumes all certified welders are good or make good welds. I've done a fair bit of welding in different industries and I'll tell 'ya, that ain't the case.

I don't know for fact but would guess that a welder at Lippert is on a production line and is tasked with just a few welds in certain locations. If the company can afford robots, they'll have the best welder for the job. The robot isn't concerned about time as the weld time is always the same.

The Norco/BAL Frame refered to by My Red Racer used by Jayco and some others is a whole different animal! It's a sectioned ultralight weight stamped steel frame, built almost like a unibodied car. Not welded, but "Huck Bolted" like a railroad uses...no heat used to hold the stamped girders together. Just some bolts spun into the tight holes with high speed.

http://norcoind.com/bal/products/oem/ultraframe/index.shtml

The "nittering naybobs of negativism" (as Spiro Agnew called it) were people that had substandard spec'd frames made by the largest manufacturer of RV Chassis in North America. Lippert.

The frame failures were of epic porportions, many in number and legendary. Rust on new frames, bad welds, out riggers on frames were tacked on, "spot welded" instead of fully welded.

HOWEVER....these issues are largly a fond memory no...the entire boon doggle was mostly the RV Manufacturers fault...when they speced a frame, Lipert built it to order to the specs given to them Period.

If the RV Manufacturer cheaped out and didn't pay for certified welders, inspectors and a fully welded part instead of "tack wedled", the frame guys built it the way the RV Manufacturer requested. It was the WRONG way, and the CRAPPY way...but you do get what you pay for. $$$!

Interesting enough, Jayco was usng Leland Chassis to build their RV Frames...no issues! Because Leland was building to Jayco's custom blueprint Specs...a fully welded chassis. Not tack welded. Good frames. Then when Leland was bought by Lippert...Jayco still had specific specs for their own frames...an extra cost option that other RV Builders finally bought into as well!



So the cracked welds, broken frames are largely a thing of the past! Thankfully!

Watch out for Lippert frames with China Bomb tires. They are all broken down at the side of the Interstate!! Don't you see them?!!?

Part of "why" Lippert has a bad rep is the big deal they made almost a year ago when they announced that -now- all the welders were certified.
Now, not being certified does not mean you are a "bad" welder, but if the company doesn't require certification, you don't know.

Nash supplies the frames to Outdoors RV. Nash has their frames "certified" by an outside company. Not sure exactly what their certification means. They call their frames heavy duty, off-road.

Jayco is using the BAL/Norco Ultraframe. Not sure if all models though. Lance does as well. I like the look of the Jayco one better as there are no holes down the sides of the I-beams like the Lance ones have (or did). There's no welds on these frames and you can't weld anything to them. Pretty cool looking. I believe Lance had problems with them in the past but I'm sure the new ones are okay.

Dexter builds frames, but I don't know if any TTs have them. If there are others out there, I'd sure like to hear.

Lippert has numerous designs in the frames on different brands and models. Some have re-inforcement like gussets and 2x2 tubing welded to the underside of the I-beams in the area of the spring hangers. I've seen different configurations and placement of gussets. Some Lippert frames have just the I-beams and spring hangers. You can look at TTs with about the same GVWR and some have decent looking re-enforcement and some will have none. As I understand it, a TT manufacturer gives the frame manufacturer some degree of info. on how they want a frame built and it's not 100% up to the frame manufacturer to do the full design.

Lippert also makes a "fabricated" I-beam made from 3 pieces of mild steel welded together lengthwise (as opposed to a forged I-beam). It's used on a number of lite-weight TTs. Forged beams are better and that's what I would go with if you have a choice.

There are some pretty weak frames out there due to the inherent design of them. On some frames, spring hangers are taller at 6" as opposed to some which are 4" tall. The taller ones increase the leverage on the side of the I-beams which creates a higher chance of getting frame cracks. With over-slung axles, there is higher lateral leverage force compared to under-slung ones. If you have both over-slung axles and the taller spring hangers, you have a higher chance of frame cracks.

Some I-beams are 6" tall and some are 8" tall. Some have thicker flanges and I presume in the vertical web too. Welding is sometimes poor and incomplete on frames.

With all the enclosed underbellies these days, it's not possible to see how cross-bracing between the I-beams is done and it hides all kinds of things that may potentially not be done well. Sometimes cross-bracing is just a piece of 2x2 attached to the side of the I-beam without any re-enforcement and only partially welded. That's why when you see pics of frame cracks, it's part way up the I-beam just above a spring hanger due to metal fatigue. If you attached a camcorder underneath your frame and filmed what happens while towing, you would be amazed to see how much the spring hangers can flex from side to side as you turn corners and while your TT sways side to side as you move down the road. For some frames, it's just a matter of time before you end up with cracks.

A problem with frames is that there are no industry design standards and regulations that a manufacturer must follow. They can build them however they want without repercussion. If something goes wrong, a common reply from them is that you overloaded your TT and it's not their fault. Or they will say "it's within specs."

Frames are often designed to barely handle the dry weight at the factory, let alone the GVWR. Being somewhat facetious, but I think there is some truth to this. Frames are often built as abslolutely light as possible and as cheap as possible which means less metal and thinner metal. There are no standards that specifies what a frame design should be for a given length or weight. Some frames are weak enough that they flex enough vertically as you travel that the super-structure can even be damaged.

Anything you can to do restrain side to side movement at the lower point of the spring hangers will help to minimize the chance of frame cracks. Cross-bracing like the Mor/Ryde one is a good idea or you can make your own. I think the Dexter EZ-flex kit with wet bolts helps too. The shackles are much thicker and won't flex as much and the bushing will last much longer. The plastic ones can fail prematurely. If you have no underbelly material or remove it, you can add gussets to the cross-bracing.

If you are curious and interested in frames or concerned, I suggest going to an RV show and/or some dealer's lot and look under as many TT as you can find. There's a lot of variations in frames. The smartest thing you can do before deciding on a TT to purchase is look at the frame and compare it to others.

If you don't want a Lippert frame, and you want a really top-notch frame, get a Nash or Outdoors RV product. Jayco with their BAL frame would be a second pick and they have a 2 year warranty. Just because it's Lippert doesn't mean it's going to automatically be a potential problem though. It's just that there are better Lippert ones and lesser ones. Choose wisely...

I have a 2011 Sunnybrook with the Lippert frame and it's very well designed. Every area that experiences high stress has a partial web support. Cross supports are a tubular cross style similar to commercial metal rafter’s. The frame is cambered and has 5200lb axles. I would go out of my way to buy a RV with this frame.
MM49

My new 2014 Jayco Eagle Premier 338RETS has a Lippert frame with Dexter 5200lb axles.

Thanks for the replies, it's for a friend who's buying his first RV. It's not so much the Lippert frame but their axles and thinner wall axle tube along with the poor quality bearings and races. He's decided to find the new trailer he likes and replace the axles if they are Lippert.