Ram Goes to Stunning 900 lb-ft of torque

ShinerBock wrote:

wilber1 wrote:

Well don't hurt yourself.....

I was going to just let it go with that last post with the pic, but since you want to continue to be an anus then I will oblige your request of how the torque management that everyone else is talking about in this thread is NOT the same as traction control.

First off, the torque management(or TM) that the rest of us in this thread were talking about is when the ECM cuts power to the engine between shifts so that the driveline will have less of a shock load on each shift and to increase their chances of not having to pay out during the warranty period(more on this later). The ECM(Engine Control Module) mapping or programming for this TM is separate from the mapping of the traction control(or TC), and THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. I am unsure if you know how engine/vehicle mapping works(or anything for that matter), but in its very basic form an ECMs mapping is pre-programmed commands for the engine/vehicle to respond given a certain set of criteria. For the TM that we are talking about, the ECM is programmed to cut power from the engine on every upshift and/or in lower rpms or gears.

Traction control(or TC) is not the same as the type of TM that we are talking about and actually has a separate ECM mapping for this. Traction control will also cut engine power(like the TM we are talking about will) along with applying the brakes of the vehicle to regain or gain traction. Just because they both cut engine power does NOT mean they are the same thing. They are used for different purposes and are completely separate from each other in their uses so don't get them confused. If you say torque management in a Ram, Ford, GM, or any other forum then they will know that you are referring to the ECM cutting power between shifts and NOT the traction control cutting power to gain traction. For some odd reason you want to link them as the same since the both limit torque output even though just about nobody else in the known world does (besides 1 Ausie), and even the engineers that know they are two different things. Although I think this has more to do with the fact that you do not like admitting when you are wrong and will use "attrition" so you don't have to admit it even though just about everyone else is proving you wrong.

I never said they were the same thing, I said they are both forms of torque management. You can resort to name calling if you wish but the fact you can't comprehend that both systems manage the amount of torque going to the wheels is your problem, not mine.

As far as why our trucks have torque management in the first place, it has more to do with the manufacturer's not having to pay warranty then saving your driveline because all this torque the engine is putting out. The more consumers want these longer warranties, the more the manufacturers are going to stack the odd in their favor in making sure things will last in that warranty period so they do not have to pay. Why do you think torque management is so bad in Ram and GM products who up until recently had the longest warranty while it was not so bad in Ford's? Ram and GM are going to make sure that whatever it is that they warranty for a long time will last in that time frame even from the "idiot" behind the wheel.

Although, what most think is torque management is actually the pedal lag or dead pedal with the DBW system which ALL manufacturers are affected by. Some more than others. Most people think that whatever they do with the pedal will instantly cause the engine to do as well. It does not work that way with drive by wire systems. You may mash the pedal 50% expecting to get 50% of the engines output, but the ECM will only tell the engine to produce say 30% output. Not only that, but the DBW pedal is not instant either. You make give it 50% pedal, but it won't send the signal to the ECM for 50% pedal until a few seconds later because it slowly ramps up to tell the ECM 50% pedal is pushed.

This video may explain it better - MOTORHEAD GARAGE : SPRINT BOOSTER

wilber1 wrote:

Well don't hurt yourself.....

I was going to just let it go with that last post with the pic, but since you want to continue to be an anus then I will oblige your request of how the torque management that everyone else is talking about in this thread is NOT the same as traction control.

First off, the torque management(or TM) that the rest of us in this thread were talking about is when the ECM cuts power to the engine between shifts so that the driveline will have less of a shock load on each shift and to increase their chances of not having to pay out during the warranty period(more on this later). The ECM(Engine Control Module) mapping or programming for this TM is separate from the mapping of the traction control(or TC), and THEY ARE NOT THE SAME. I am unsure if you know how engine/vehicle mapping works(or anything for that matter), but in its very basic form an ECMs mapping is pre-programmed commands for the engine/vehicle to respond given a certain set of criteria. For the TM that we are talking about, the ECM is programmed to cut power from the engine on every upshift and/or in lower rpms or gears.

Traction control(or TC) is not the same as the type of TM that we are talking about and actually has a separate ECM mapping for this. Traction control will also cut engine power(like the TM we are talking about will) along with applying the brakes of the vehicle to regain or gain traction. Just because they both cut engine power does NOT mean they are the same thing. They are used for different purposes and are completely separate from each other in their uses so don't get them confused. If you say torque management in a Ram, Ford, GM, or any other forum then they will know that you are referring to the ECM cutting power between shifts and NOT the traction control cutting power to gain traction. For some odd reason you want to link them as the same since the both limit torque output even though just about nobody else in the known world does (besides 1 Ausie), and even the engineers that know they are two different things. Although I think this has more to do with the fact that you do not like admitting when you are wrong and will use "attrition" so you don't have to admit it even though just about everyone else is proving you wrong.

People need to get out and go camping.

Yup!

I thought threads only derailed this badly in winter.

People need to get out and go camping.

gmcsmoke wrote:

wilber1 wrote:


Wheel spin is caused by excess torque at the wheel and traction control works to manage that torque. If you look at RobertRyan's post, three of the methods used involve reducing engine output and the other BS's the differential into transferring torque to another wheel.

Whether it is used to limit wheel spin or prevent parts from breaking, it is still torque management.

you're not even close to describing TQ management. TQ management is controlled by the ECM and TCM based on the throttle wires position all of this is occurring well before any power or fuel is being added to the engine or transferred to the rear wheels. Traction control is when one wheel spins more than the other causing the ECM and ABS to reduce engine power and apply the brakes to control the vehicle.

You can turn off traction control and power brake till your hearts content but you can't run WOT from a red light get wheel spin due to TQ management.

Your analogy of TQ management and traction control is like saying an exhaust brake is the same as ABS; both slow the vehicle down without locking the tires up.

No, I am saying both systems manage torque and they do. If you don't think an exhaust brake can lock up your wheels, try using it on a slippery surface. It doesn't manage torque or provide anti lock protection at all.

See I told you.

Actually I have, point made for emphasis.

Maybe others here that are discussing the salient aspects of bore and stroke or torque management are not arguing, but just making points of empahsis; especially since you make the distinction between points of emphasis and arguments. Maybe they are not "dealing with semantics forcing an argument" like you stated. I don't see an argument, I see a discussion. The discussion, arguments or points of emphasis are beneficial and should continue as long as people are civil with each other. Unfortunately some folks don't know where the civil/not civil line in the sand is, and others like you apparently think these forum round table discussions are arguments. Just because two people that like the Cummins engine don't see things the same way does not mean they are playing 'semantics games forcing an argument'. And if people are essentially saying the same thing just in different ways it also is not an argument.

wilber1 wrote:


Wheel spin is caused by excess torque at the wheel and traction control works to manage that torque. If you look at RobertRyan's post, three of the methods used involve reducing engine output and the other BS's the differential into transferring torque to another wheel.

Whether it is used to limit wheel spin or prevent parts from breaking, it is still torque management.

you're not even close to describing TQ management. TQ management is controlled by the ECM and TCM based on the throttle wires position all of this is occurring well before any power or fuel is being added to the engine or transferred to the rear wheels. Traction control is when one wheel spins more than the other causing the ECM and ABS to reduce engine power and apply the brakes to control the vehicle.

You can turn off traction control and power brake till your hearts content but you can't run WOT from a red light get wheel spin due to TQ management.

Your analogy of TQ management and traction control is like saying an exhaust brake is the same as ABS; both slow the vehicle down without locking the tires up.

I figured eventually they'd hit the 900 mark. Wow.

wilber1 wrote:

ShinerBock wrote:

wilber1 wrote:


How exactly does traction control work then if it doesn't do it by managing torque?

My face....




when I read this post. Followed by a head shake.

Well don't hurt yourself.

Wheel spin is caused by excess torque at the wheel and traction control works to manage that torque. If you look at RobertRyan's post, three of the methods used involve reducing engine output and the other BS's the differential into transferring torque to another wheel.

Whether it is used to limit wheel spin or prevent parts from breaking, it is still torque management.

My Ram doesn't seem to limit the torque to the wheels when it slips a tire. It applies brake to that wheel causing the other wheel with more traction to pull. I have seen it do it many times while the DW was pulling into our garage on ice and me standing by the truck. It will also make the tires chirp like wheel hop while under a WOT take off on dry pavement once it hits third gear. Believe me, it is not limiting the power by then. It is working the brakes side to side to keep the tires from braking loose.

Now, the traction control in my LS1 Trans Am would embarrass you if you for got to turn it off while trying to get some wheel. It would shut it down to an idle just as soon as the tires spun. Been there and done that one. LOL!