Really having a tough time understanding tow info

I will give a little different advice, by using my own decision process from 5 years ago.

First, what do you want to do? We like to camp and then some light to moderate 4 wheeling, such as Turroweap(sp) in Grand Canyon. Some areas limit the length of your vehicles, don't know if it is enforced. I think that a 5er pulls the best, and is safest, so I have a 5er.

Dual rear wheels are no darned good in the mud, so I have a single rear wheel. Gas is better in the mud and rocks, the diesels pull so much better, but the fuel, def, and particulate filter systems hang low. I bought a diesel for the pulling, and accept the limitations in the dirt.

I have used all the makers and many configurations over the past 30 years in oilfield work. I also know how rough the road can get before my DW chickens out. The supercab standard (short) bed balances ride, capacity, and works without a slider on my cut nose 5er.

Only the two of us camp, so a 28' 5er with 2 slides, a diesel supercab (Ford 6.7) and it is an F250 so I can use the left lanes and many parkways without the 5er in the Northeast. The DW is a Jersey Girl and this part of the country has many 10k limits. I think you should derate the makers ratings by 10% for driveability, not safety.

Thanks for all the replies Gent's. I haven't even begun or thought of talking to sales people yet, I need to understand this stuff before I do anything. And I feel like I am getting there.

As I have stated while PM'ing another member is that I am not even sure about a Toyhauler yet. I do like the idea of the garage. But a traditional 5th wheel may be better. A motorhome is pretty much off the list, and a travel trailer would be last option I think.

I am understanding that this is very much like the hot/crazy scale involving womenz, something is going to be sacrificed and your also looking for that happy medium.

Hi Chad and WELCOME !!!

Lots to talk about and learn (everyone can learn something on this
topic)

Careful on what sales folks tell you...they are in it for their paycheck
Some know, some don't have a clue on the needed specifications and
how that system works (ratings system)

First, decide if you believe in the OEM ratings system or not.

If not, then do whatever and this discussion academic. Note that you
will then assume both the warranty and liability of the vehicle

If yes, then read up and hope my quote below will help you 'see' the
big picture. Most advice's have no skin in the game...so read up on
their old posts to see if they have similar values you do

Too many take any 'one' component in the 'system' as the basis for
their decision and/or advice. It is s WHOLE SYSTEM made up of components
and sub-systems. Again the diagram will show the inter-relationships

Then the MTWR (max tow weight rating)...the OEMs use a flat bed trailer
with almost no side/frontal area. That trailer is loaded with blocks
of concrete/etc and placed best to derive the highest MTWR...plus they
play it to have a 10% tongue weight...that provides the highest MTWR,
but few trailers actually have a 10% loaded tongue.

Higher tongue weight percentages tow better...on average or general rule

Good luck and keep posting on this thread to that other newbies can
learn from your experience

Ben

PS...used that 3 wheeled motor cycle to add a bit of whimsy and to
show that anything can tow just about anything...just how well is
the crucial point




Below quote from this thread: Where can I find GCWR?

BenK wrote:
Posted: 10/09/15 09:25pm
This quote from this thread might help you visualize how the system
looks like in graphical form



Contradicting Tow Vehicle Advise

BenK wrote:
Posted: 08/22/15 12:19pm
Welcome to both this forum and the world of RV'ing

Many times, salesman are not lying per say, but out of context in most all
cases.

Ditto advice on any of these freebie forums...it is worth the price paid. Also
learn to filter the advice to your needs and opinions. Many forget that newbies
do NOT have the experience and hard knock schooling to filter well...those
'sure you can'...'have been doing it for decades'...etc

I do NOT advise in that regard, but try to provide information
that the Newbie must find, weight and do the simple math for their
own Risk Management Decision (AKA...gambling)

First decide if you believe in the OEM ratings system and numbers...or not

If not, then academic and do whatever, but know you have taken the OEM(s)
off the warranty and liability hook and now own them...

The generic formula is:

GCWR => TV + Trailer + everything loaded

This has the OEM dialed in safety margins for longevity, safety
and to agency mandated MINIMUM performance...biggie for me is
braking the whole setup

Of course best to actually weigh everything, ready to go RV'ing,
axle by axle

Gather the information for both TV and Trailer: GVWR, F/R GAWR,
GCWR. Tongue percentage weight of ACTUAL weight is also needed

You will find that the MTWR (Max Tow Weight Rating) is bogus, unless
you have the stripper TV and 'dry' trailer that has a 10% tongue
weight percentage (it should be 12% to 15% and I prefer heavier)

Here is the graphical representation of how the ratings systems
looks like, or works. A bit of whimsy and mean it...anything 'can'
tow, but how well, how long and how safely is my goal...for a half
ton 'can' tow the Space Shuttle...but for how long...how well and
how safely???


howmuchcanitow howmuchshoulditow

If you have the factory tow package and figured out maximum tow capacity tow at 80% of that rating.
Example: Tow rating 10,000lbs your wet camper Max is 8,000lbs.

In the 5th wheel RV world, payload is likely the limit. 3/4 ton gassers have about 3000 pounds available. That is about a 2000 pounds for pin weight or 10k loaded 5th wheel. That's not much for a toy hauler. 3/4 ton diesels are more around 2000-2500 pound of payload, so their paylaod is exceeded even lower 5th wheel weight. That's why some people have recommended going straight to the 1-ton. New it costs $400-1000 for the extra 1000-1400 pounds of payload.

You really need to narrow down that RV. Toy haulers can get very heavy as the frames are heavier to handle the weight of the toys the carry. Plus they tend to have larger fresh water tanks and fueling stations.

The question was:

Why is the GCWR for this truck 20,500lbs when the GVWR + Max 5th wheel rating add up to 23,600lbs?

Because the pin weight of the 5th wheel counts against the trailer weight, and counts against the truck's GVWR.

If you load the truck up with bricks until it weighs the same as the GVWR, 9500lbs, then you have ZERO payload capacity left for the pin weight of the trailer. If you hooked up the trailer at that point you would be overloaded.

The 3100lb difference allows for 3100lbs of trailer pin weight and/or cargo in the truck.

So, the gasser has a larger carrying capacity than the diesel truck because of the lighter engine, however it lacks the power to pull a heavier trailer.

We just bought a 3500 RAM SRW and the hitch weight and other bed items quickly cut into the carrying capacity. However with a 11,700 GVWR and 7K rear axle rating I am a leg up on any 250/2500 series truck. Chris

gattorgetter wrote:
Ok I have neither as of yet. Want a 5TH wheel TH.
Was looking at 2016 GMC 2500 HD gas.here are some specs that I pulled up online for just about the truck I am looking at.
Curb 6459
Payload 3274
GVWR MAX 9500
Max 5th wheel 14100
GCWR 20500

So loaded truck and loaded 5th wheel should not exceed 20500#?

But max gvwr and max 5th wheel = 23600#

So I take curb weight plus all things I would put in truck.... me passenger and 5th wheel hitch.. so let's say 800# (not traveling more than 2 hrs from home)
6460+800= 7260 so that would leave me with 2240# for pin weight of 5th wheel?

Hi Gattorgetter,
It seems like everyone wants to throw out a vehicle recommendation versus explaining all the stuff you posted. So I'll work on the latter.

So your GCWR is truly the weight of your truck and all the gear and fluids in it + the weight of the trailer fully loaded. So combined, you truck and trailer setup must be 20,500 lbs or less. Just as you stated, truck and 5'er should not exceed the weight. Now here's the kicker. Your GCWR is 20,500 pounds. From your statement, your truck will weigh 7,260. The maximum weight your 5'er can be with you remaining within its rating is 13,240 lbs (This is including up to 2240 lbs of pin weight your truck would possibly be carrying).

Typically when a truck manufacturer rates for the maximum trailer towing mass, they're assuming a truck empty with a 175 pound driver and full tank of fuel and all operating fluids. So basically with no cargo in the truck and just the driver, then you can tow a 14,100 pound 5th wheel (I hope I'm reading your information right, assuming the 14,100 is the maximum 5th wheel tow rating of the tow vehicle).

As for your pin-weight calculation, you hit that on the nose, you are correct, 9500-7260 = 2240.

So to summarize, GCWR for your tow vehicle is the maximum weight of your truck and trailer COMBINED.
Payload is just the full weight your tow vehicle can be burdened with (full payload including fuel and oil and the family unit)
Then you also have your rear axle weight that you have to be at or under, but that typically determines payload.

Hopefully this clears up the mud a little bit.

Unless it has changed for the new '15 GM HD Twins, the 3500 srw gas truck has the same rear axle as the diesel 2500/3500 trucks. ONLY the 2500HD has the smaller (10.5" vs 11.5") rear axle. This was through the '14 trucks, as I mentioned possibly the same for the new '15 GM HD's. Of course the 2500HD diesel truck has a different spring pack than the 3500HD's.

The 2500 truck your looking at may have a 14000 lb tow rating but IMO you won't like the towing performance for a 14k lb trailer with the 6.0/6.4 small block gas engine.

The 2500 is limited by the small 6200 RAWR to around 3200 lb total payload.
A 14000 actual weight trailer can have a 3000 lb hitch weight. Now add your 800 lb figure and your well over any 250/2500 trucks RAWR.

A 350/3500 SRW Diesel with those bigger 7000-7050 RAWR and 45xx lb payload is a better choice for that large trailer.

Trucks actual scaled gross weight plus the trailers actual scaled gross weight = its actual GCWR when both are loaded......which may or may not = the trucks makers GCWR.