Rivian 1/2 ton high temp, grade test. Good read/video

Reisender wrote:

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

So yes. I am including fuel costs in operating costs. Our Jeep wasn’t that bad for maintenance costs. Pretty good vehicle overall. And yah, our usage needs changed so although the cargo room was great in the SUV it wasn’t needed anymore. A Tesla model 3 is not a compact car though. They are actually quite roomy. And has two trunks. More of a mid size. So keeping it real there is some apples to oranges comparisons. Having said that for us the fuel costs went from around 170 to 25 bucks per month. And a heck of a lot more convenient.

So yah, it’s cheaper. Works for us. Not the right fit for everybody. One would have to analyze what they do and see what works. Obviously gas and electricity prices can move the needle a lot. Here it’s a no brainer. Which is why 15 percent of all new vehicles sold are Electric. When EV trucks are available that will easily double.

If an SUV is needed the model Y is a nice alternative to something like the Grand Cherokee.

Look it up, the Mod 3 is a compact car. That's not a bad thing if you need a compact car but it's wildly different from a full size SUV when you are doing a comparison. Particularly if you want to throw fuel costs into the mix.

Grand Cherokee is looking at somewhere around 16mpg. Your typical compact car is somewhere on the order of 30-35 mpg and the more efficiency focused models can push north of 40 mpg.

So re-run the numbers with a 40mpg car and that gap drops to more like $65 per month for fuel or about $40 savings...vs a substantial up front price difference to get the basic tesla.

This is a good example of where EV proponents get it wrong. They push obviously misleading comparisons and then they are shocked when people assume anything they say is intended to be misleading. Fuel is cheaper for EVs, so there is no reason to mislead over it.

PS: Where are you getting 15% of new car sales are battery EV's? I'm coming up with something like 1.9% (2019) in the US looking online at that's with heavy subsidization and they aren't providing details but articles say there has been a fall back in 2020 due to cheap gas prices

I looked it up. You are right. It’s a compact. Definetly a big compact though. Or maybe my garage is just small. :)

You misunderstood my post. I said that 15 percent of new car sales are electric in my province. Nothing about percentage of vehicles on the road. Last year it was 9 percent so it’s growing fast.

Cheers.

I didn't see where it mentioned province in your original comment...So it's a specific subset of data not representative of your country or larger market which is a much smaller percentage and largely still driven by govt support.

Plus as others mentioned, even that is overstating when you are looking at battery only.

PIH still makes far more sense for the vast majority of people unless you only need the car as a commuter car and have a full service vehicle for longer trips. There is no reason to believe this won't apply equally well if not more to pickups.

wnjj wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Could you post a link for that 15% of the car sale.........

I would like to read it.

Sure. Here’s a link for 2019 9 percent I mentioned. You can google the expected 2020 results. Lots depends on Tesla’s ability to crank them out and allotment to Canada. About half of EV’s sold here are Tesla’s. Three things work for EV sales here.

1. Cheap and abundant power.
2. Expensive gas.
3. Federal and provincial incentives on cheaper models.

https://mobilesyrup.com/2019/11/29/nine-percent-new-vehicles-sales-electric-b-c/

That article says 65% of the electric vehicle sales are battery-only. The others are plug-in hybrid. Also, Tesla is about half of that 65% not half of what the article is calling EV's. Still a pretty good chunk of the sales though.

This thread, however, is about the Rivian. At least it got one page to itself. ;)

Classic thread wander. :)

It’ll be interesting to see if they hit the 15 percent they are talking about for 2020. The pandemic dried up access for a bit.

There are a ton of people waiting for electric pickups here but I think the American market will get supplied first. 2022 should see a bunch available here though. The next few years will be interesting. Charging infrastructure is going up faster here as well and now the gas stations are getting it. We need it. Bring it on.

Reisender wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Could you post a link for that 15% of the car sale.........

I would like to read it.

Sure. Here’s a link for 2019 9 percent I mentioned. You can google the expected 2020 results. Lots depends on Tesla’s ability to crank them out and allotment to Canada. About half of EV’s sold here are Tesla’s. Three things work for EV sales here.

1. Cheap and abundant power.
2. Expensive gas.
3. Federal and provincial incentives on cheaper models.

https://mobilesyrup.com/2019/11/29/nine-percent-new-vehicles-sales-electric-b-c/

That article says 65% of the electric vehicle sales are battery-only. The others are plug-in hybrid. Also, Tesla is about half of that 65% not half of what the article is calling EV's. Still a pretty good chunk of the sales though.

This thread, however, is about the Rivian. At least it got one page to itself. ;)

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
Could you post a link for that 15% of the car sale.........

I would like to read it.

Sure. Here’s a link for 2019 9 percent I mentioned. You can google the expected 2020 results. Lots depends on Tesla’s ability to crank them out and allotment to Canada. About half of EV’s sold here are Tesla’s. Three things work for EV sales here.

1. Cheap and abundant power.
2. Expensive gas.
3. Federal and provincial incentives on cheaper models.

https://mobilesyrup.com/2019/11/29/nine-percent-new-vehicles-sales-electric-b-c/

Could you post a link for that 15% of the car sale.........

I would like to read it.

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

So yes. I am including fuel costs in operating costs. Our Jeep wasn’t that bad for maintenance costs. Pretty good vehicle overall. And yah, our usage needs changed so although the cargo room was great in the SUV it wasn’t needed anymore. A Tesla model 3 is not a compact car though. They are actually quite roomy. And has two trunks. More of a mid size. So keeping it real there is some apples to oranges comparisons. Having said that for us the fuel costs went from around 170 to 25 bucks per month. And a heck of a lot more convenient.

So yah, it’s cheaper. Works for us. Not the right fit for everybody. One would have to analyze what they do and see what works. Obviously gas and electricity prices can move the needle a lot. Here it’s a no brainer. Which is why 15 percent of all new vehicles sold are Electric. When EV trucks are available that will easily double.

If an SUV is needed the model Y is a nice alternative to something like the Grand Cherokee.

Look it up, the Mod 3 is a compact car. That's not a bad thing if you need a compact car but it's wildly different from a full size SUV when you are doing a comparison. Particularly if you want to throw fuel costs into the mix.

Grand Cherokee is looking at somewhere around 16mpg. Your typical compact car is somewhere on the order of 30-35 mpg and the more efficiency focused models can push north of 40 mpg.

So re-run the numbers with a 40mpg car and that gap drops to more like $65 per month for fuel or about $40 savings...vs a substantial up front price difference to get the basic tesla.

This is a good example of where EV proponents get it wrong. They push obviously misleading comparisons and then they are shocked when people assume anything they say is intended to be misleading. Fuel is cheaper for EVs, so there is no reason to mislead over it.

PS: Where are you getting 15% of new car sales are battery EV's? I'm coming up with something like 1.9% (2019) in the US looking online at that's with heavy subsidization and they aren't providing details but articles say there has been a fall back in 2020 due to cheap gas prices

I looked it up. You are right. It’s a compact. Definetly a big compact though. Or maybe my garage is just small. :)

You misunderstood my post. I said that 15 percent of new car sales are electric in my province. Nothing about percentage of vehicles on the road. Last year it was 9 percent so it’s growing fast.

Cheers.

Reisender wrote:

So yes. I am including fuel costs in operating costs. Our Jeep wasn’t that bad for maintenance costs. Pretty good vehicle overall. And yah, our usage needs changed so although the cargo room was great in the SUV it wasn’t needed anymore. A Tesla model 3 is not a compact car though. They are actually quite roomy. And has two trunks. More of a mid size. So keeping it real there is some apples to oranges comparisons. Having said that for us the fuel costs went from around 170 to 25 bucks per month. And a heck of a lot more convenient.

So yah, it’s cheaper. Works for us. Not the right fit for everybody. One would have to analyze what they do and see what works. Obviously gas and electricity prices can move the needle a lot. Here it’s a no brainer. Which is why 15 percent of all new vehicles sold are Electric. When EV trucks are available that will easily double.

If an SUV is needed the model Y is a nice alternative to something like the Grand Cherokee.

Look it up, the Mod 3 is a compact car. That's not a bad thing if you need a compact car but it's wildly different from a full size SUV when you are doing a comparison. Particularly if you want to throw fuel costs into the mix.

Grand Cherokee is looking at somewhere around 16mpg. Your typical compact car is somewhere on the order of 30-35 mpg and the more efficiency focused models can push north of 40 mpg.

So re-run the numbers with a 40mpg car and that gap drops to more like $65 per month for fuel or about $40 savings...vs a substantial up front price difference to get the basic tesla.

This is a good example of where EV proponents get it wrong. They push obviously misleading comparisons and then they are shocked when people assume anything they say is intended to be misleading. Fuel is cheaper for EVs, so there is no reason to mislead over it.

PS: Where are you getting 15% of new car sales are battery EV's? I'm coming up with something like 1.9% (2019) in the US looking online at that's with heavy subsidization and they aren't providing details but articles say there has been a fall back in 2020 due to cheap gas prices

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Re maintenance costs for hybrids. From what I gather they are pretty low. However when in gas mode their operating expenses are similar to an ICE car. Depending on where you live and what the gas and electricity prices are that can be quite high in comparison to a pure EV. Our total operating and maintenance costs were about 8 times higher with a Grand Cherokee than a model 3 Tesla. Both vehicles cost roughly the same. Grand Cherokee had great cargo room though. Meh. Pros and cons all around. I didn’t think we would want to go back to a premium high performance sports sedan...and yet here we are. LOL :). Who knows what it will be next time. :).

Sure, comparing a compact car to a full size SUV, operating costs will be higher for the SUV. Also, how many years for each and how was each used? A 10yr old Cherokee used hard vs a 3yr old Mod 3 used mostly for light commuter work, sure maintenance costs will likely be higher but you are comparing apples to oranges.

Of course, how much is 8 times higher...$10/yr vs $80/yr, 8 times is largely irrelevant to the average buyer. Or are you trying to slip fuel costs into the comparison...where again the apples to oranges comparison makes it a misleading comparison.

So yes. I am including fuel costs in operating costs. Our Jeep wasn’t that bad for maintenance costs. Pretty good vehicle overall. And yah, our usage needs changed so although the cargo room was great in the SUV it wasn’t needed anymore. A Tesla model 3 is not a compact car though. They are actually quite roomy. And has two trunks. More of a mid size. So keeping it real there is some apples to oranges comparisons. Having said that for us the fuel costs went from around 170 to 25 bucks per month. And a heck of a lot more convenient.

So yah, it’s cheaper. Works for us. Not the right fit for everybody. One would have to analyze what they do and see what works. Obviously gas and electricity prices can move the needle a lot. Here it’s a no brainer. Which is why 15 percent of all new vehicles sold are Electric. When EV trucks are available that will easily double.

If an SUV is needed the model Y is a nice alternative to something like the Grand Cherokee.

Reisender wrote:

Re maintenance costs for hybrids. From what I gather they are pretty low. However when in gas mode their operating expenses are similar to an ICE car. Depending on where you live and what the gas and electricity prices are that can be quite high in comparison to a pure EV. Our total operating and maintenance costs were about 8 times higher with a Grand Cherokee than a model 3 Tesla. Both vehicles cost roughly the same. Grand Cherokee had great cargo room though. Meh. Pros and cons all around. I didn’t think we would want to go back to a premium high performance sports sedan...and yet here we are. LOL :). Who knows what it will be next time. :).

Sure, comparing a compact car to a full size SUV, operating costs will be higher for the SUV. Also, how many years for each and how was each used? A 10yr old Cherokee used hard vs a 3yr old Mod 3 used mostly for light commuter work, sure maintenance costs will likely be higher but you are comparing apples to oranges.

Of course, how much is 8 times higher...$10/yr vs $80/yr, 8 times is largely irrelevant to the average buyer. Or are you trying to slip fuel costs into the comparison...where again the apples to oranges comparison makes it a misleading comparison.

valhalla360 wrote:

Reisender wrote:

Both Ford and GM have been doing some development in the hybrid truck market although it’s not clear if they’ll actually enter into serious production.

For cars, in developed countries it doesn’t make a lot of sense to go hybrid. Hybrids still have high maintenance and operating costs and none of the performance advantages. Hybrid cars tend to be doggy things in comparison to electrics. Hybrid sales have been falling for a few years although Toyota is still committed to making a comeback.

The next few years will be telling.

Old style hybrids don't make a lot of sense.

Plug-In-Hybrids make a ton of sense. None of the range issues of pure EVs and for most buyers who do mostly commuting, you can get 80-99% of miles of electric.

Honestly, it makes no sense why the EV proponents aren't pushing them hard as they answer 99% of the complaints for passenger car buyers.

PS: The maintenance cost thing is way overstated. Modern ICE are incredibly reliable and typically require little more than an annual oil change for $25. Vast majority of repair costs are for things like tires, suspension, brakes...which are present in all cars. You might save a little on brakes but PIH often do regenerative braking and if you aren't abusive, it's not hard to get 30-50k miles out of a set of brakes, so that's not a big issue.

Im sure plug in hybrids will continue to find a market and they probably suit some people’s driving needs quite well right now. But they are more complex and really not any cheaper. As well the range on many of the full EV’s sold now combined with good charging infrastructure (read Tesla) is sufficient for road trips of 600 to 800 km assuming a lunch break charge.

Toyota’s Prius prime seems to be hanging in there though so there is still a market for plug in hybrids. Nice car. Hate the goofy looking front end. It has a good reputation though.

Re maintenance costs for hybrids. From what I gather they are pretty low. However when in gas mode their operating expenses are similar to an ICE car. Depending on where you live and what the gas and electricity prices are that can be quite high in comparison to a pure EV. Our total operating and maintenance costs were about 8 times higher with a Grand Cherokee than a model 3 Tesla. Both vehicles cost roughly the same. Grand Cherokee had great cargo room though. Meh. Pros and cons all around. I didn’t think we would want to go back to a premium high performance sports sedan...and yet here we are. LOL :). Who knows what it will be next time. :).