Forum Discussion
CoeyCoey wrote:
ExxWhy wrote:
CoeyCoey wrote:
The tech does exist, and 80 grand for an overpriced fuel hog before upgrades is obviously not sticker shock enough.
I guess I missed it, who is producing an electric truck that can haul a 30,000 lb trailer 500 miles per day?
No, 80K will not buy a hybrid drive system robust enough to haul 30,000 lbs all day. If it would, then don't you think they would be making it? If company A makes a hybrid to tow 30K at 20 MPG, wouldn't that outsell the relics getting 10 MPG?
You said the tech doesn’t exist, not the product. A product is made from available tech. And why should the truck companies dig into their profits to give the public something new when the public is still happy about over paying for their old tech? It will take companies like Rivian to push the fat, dumb, and happy automakers into the 21 st century.
The Rivian truck cannot haul a 30K trailer 500 miles. Maybe you had a different one in mind?ExxWhy wrote:
CoeyCoey wrote:
The tech does exist, and 80 grand for an overpriced fuel hog before upgrades is obviously not sticker shock enough.
I guess I missed it, who is producing an electric truck that can haul a 30,000 lb trailer 500 miles per day?
No, 80K will not buy a hybrid drive system robust enough to haul 30,000 lbs all day. If it would, then don't you think they would be making it? If company A makes a hybrid to tow 30K at 20 MPG, wouldn't that outsell the relics getting 10 MPG?
You said the tech doesn’t exist, not the product. A product is made from available tech. And why should the truck companies dig into their profits to give the public something new when the public is still happy about over paying for their old tech? It will take companies like Rivian to push the fat, dumb, and happy automakers into the 21 st century.4x4ord wrote:
Are you talking about a diesel electric with a big battery to help power a truck up a hill? If no battery all the power is coming from the diesel engine and the electric generator and motors don't serve much advantage over a 10 speed transmission.
Yes, with a battery. Otherwise, there would be no regenerative braking which would substantially increase the efficiency.mich800 wrote:
wilber1 wrote:
mich800 wrote:
APT wrote:
Lynnmor wrote:
Of course all the discussion about needing more gears only pertains to those folks that operate at wide open throttle a significant amount of time.
Is that what owners of vehicles that have had 4->6->8 or 10 speeds say? There are more benefits to having more gears available than WOT acceleration.
I had 4-spds in my two F-150s. Now 6-spd in Suburban, 9-spd in my wife's daily driver and CVT in my DD. While I agree WOT and high throttle such as towing the difference is more measurable, but I always appreciate have the trans pick a ratio quickly that matches my demands. Te smaller the gear spacing, the more efficient and effective the power will be.
I have the privilege to drive a lot of vehicles with different technologies. If anything, my experience is the higher gear transmissions have more benefits at more moderate
throttle than full throttle.
I disagree when it come to tow vehicles. Having more gears makes it more possible to use the power one has. Who hasn’t been stuck between gears pulling up a grade? You can’t use a lower gear at WOT because you keep bumping up against the redline and the next higher gear isn’t low enough to hold your speed, so you either slow down to keep from over reving or keep shifting back and forth.
They are not designing these transmissions for single purpose vehicles. And yes your example is true especially if you are pedal to the floor the entire way up. I did not mean to imply there is not a benefit for tow vehicles.
Another advantage is improved fuel economy and they are not measuring that at straight full throttle. "just driving around" is where you see these benefits.
I agree that manufacturers are going to more gears primarily for greater fuel economy. I have a ZF 8 spd in my car and it is by far and away the best transmission I have ever had. However more gears in a tow vehicle give other advantages that outweigh any gains in towing mileage.Grit dog wrote:
With GM and Ferd sharing the 10 speed in the 1/2 tons, does anyone know if the HD 10 speed is shared as well?
I see this as a good thing. If the top 2 sellers are sharing components, there has to be a majority belief that it is a very good component.
GM said when the GMC came out that the tranny is not related to the shared one from Ford.- With GM and Ferd sharing the 10 speed in the 1/2 tons, does anyone know if the HD 10 speed is shared as well?
I see this as a good thing. If the top 2 sellers are sharing components, there has to be a majority belief that it is a very good component. Lynnmor wrote:
Of course all the discussion about needing more gears only pertains to those folks that operate at wide open throttle a significant amount of time.
On the contrary it actually will help the egg on the gas pedal crowd more... But yeah, gimme more gears!CoeyCoey wrote:
The tech does exist, and 80 grand for an overpriced fuel hog before upgrades is obviously not sticker shock enough.
I guess I missed it, who is producing an electric truck that can haul a 30,000 lb trailer 500 miles per day?
No, 80K will not buy a hybrid drive system robust enough to haul 30,000 lbs all day. If it would, then don't you think they would be making it? If company A makes a hybrid to tow 30K at 20 MPG, wouldn't that outsell the relics getting 10 MPG?CoeyCoey wrote:
wnjj wrote:
philh wrote:
wilber1 wrote:
philh wrote:
Stupid question, but do more gears really make a difference on typical superduty diesel?
Yup. How much I don't know but having the perfect gear for every situation is definite plus.
I'm having a tough time understanding how it will help given the relatively flat torque curves on a diesel engine.
Because counter to Ford’s advertising a few years ago, torque is not power. Producing the same engine torque at a higher RPM means it’s producing more power.
Another way to think of it is this. If you can downshift and raise the engine RPM, you can now send this same (flat curve) torque through a lower gear and produce even more torque at the wheel than before the downshift. Lower gears multiply engine torque.
With less gears, a downshift may not be possible because it could push the engine up past its torque producing RPM.
Yes, thank you. So many people only look at the horsepower and torque numbers and think they have an idea of how well this machine will tow. But they ignore the transmission. If you have a transmission that keeps the engine in its best power range, it can easily out perform a more powerful engine with less gears or bad shift points.
This is also why an electric or hybrid pickup would easily smoke any of the diesel trucks. The Rivian, for example, has over 10,000 pound feet of torque at the wheels and it has a very flat torque curve. So, it puts 10,000 lb-ft to the wheels up to around 60mph, then it will start t decrease. A diesel with 1,000 lb-ft of torque will put out torque to the wheels of 16,000 lb-ft in first gear, 9,900 in second gear, 6,400 in third gear, 4,900 in fourth gear, 3,700 in fifth gear, and 2,900 in sixth gear. So, the Rivian has more torque to the wheels at all times except when the diesel is in first gear.
I don't understand why people are still getting excited about these relics. If the consumers would demand better trucks, we would have diesel-electric hybrids that could easily tow 30,000+ pounds at 65mph up the Ike
Are you talking about a diesel electric with a big battery to help power a truck up a hill? If no battery all the power is coming from the diesel engine and the electric generator and motors don't serve much advantage over a 10 speed transmission.- The early Jeeps had the Hurricane 6 powder puff engine, but came with some seriouos gears in the trans and a 4:88 rear end. In most parts of the world gears are still the way people haul stuff.
I had a friend that worked on a mine in Indonesia. They had Ford one ton trucks with 4 doors with a 4 cylinder diesel. But the trans had 6 speeds and a split rear axle.
