Survey says... 1T for 5th wheel & 3/4T for BP Toyhauler

tinner12002 wrote:
I never questioned the legality of towing over GVWR but I don't think in my opinion its safe to do.

As is your right. The person to whom I was replying was making statements about LEGALITY. There is no problem with staying under GVWR what so ever. Nobody is judging you for doing so.

CWSWine wrote:
You must operate a motor vehicle on public roads withing the manufacture specs. Heck that in my grand daughter handbook.

When I sat on jury for traffic accident is was on the questionare that each jury had to fill out. The question was something like this. "Was the motor vehicle operated within manufacture specs -- YES OR NO -- if yes what percentage of the fault would you assign 1 to 99 percent.

So many things wrong with this statement...

#1 if you HAVE to operate within manufacturers specs then why is it legal to purchase non-oem parts? I would have an obligation to independently test every item that I put on or in my truck before I put it on or in. Does the seat cover affect air bag deployment? Does the window tint affect visibility? (doesn't matter if you have "legal? tint for your jurisdiction, it isn't approved by the OEM... right?) You know what, my tires are worn down below the original 18/32" tread that were originally there... thats not OEM spec either.

Thats an absolutely ridiculous statement. Not being within spec is something to consider, however it is not the end all be all. Oh, and by the way, who do you consider to be the manufacturer? Let's take my 2500 Ram for example.

The GVWR is 10,000 lbs. Is this the number by the manufacturer?
The front axle is rated at 5500 lbs and the rear is 6500 lbs. Is this the number by the manufacturer?
The axles are actually manufactured by AAM. I know that AAM rates my 11.5" rear axle at 10,000 lbs. Is this the number by the manufacturer?

I would argue that Ram is simply the entity that ASSEMBLED the parts, and AAM is the entity that manufactured the parts. I would never come even close to the rating of the manufacturer, especially because the tire rating is about 6500 lbs... which is the number that the assembler (Ram) put on the axle.

#2 My Ram is rated for 17000 lbs towing, or over 25,000 GCWR. That means that Ram, the assembler, has tested and approved this vehicle to be able to work in conjunction with approved trailer brakes, to stop 25,000 lbs moving down the highway. If I am under that 25,000 GCWR, the plaintiff would have to prove that being over payload, but under GCWR, was sufficient to overwhelm the OEM braking system.

#3 There are SO many other variables to collisions other than weight.
Do you know the the speed limit is the maximum allowable speed in optimum conditions? What if it was starting to get dark outside... now its not optimal conditions and you can no longer travel at the posted speed limit.
How about your reaction time? Your reaction time has far more input on your ability to stop than being 500 lbs over your weight rating. Do you have a cell phone or aftermarket GPS in the car, anything not OEM? Those things weren't put their by the manufacturer and could be a distraction. I would rate that as closer to 99% being a cause...
How about the condition of your tires? What if you hydroplaned because your tires are low on tread (but still within the specs of the tire manufacturer)?
What about your brakes? Your brakes are only at optimal performance if they are the proper temperature. If you have been riding your brakes coming down a hill they are too high and likely to fade. If you haven't hit your brakes in the last 20 minutes and they are cold they won't have the maximum gripping power. How much friction material is on your pads? Any vibration or pulsing? If so, they aren't within OEM spec either. As someone mentioned already, are your brake pads EXACT replacements, or are they aftermarket? How about your rotors?
What about your exhaust brake? Was it on full braking force or automatic? Did you have tow/haul on or not? Tow/haul can cause the truck to downshift quicker, resulting in better exhaust and compressive braking.
When did you last bleed and refill your brake fluid? Hope it was within the past 2 years and you have recent test strips showing that your brake fluid was within OEM specs.

We can go on and on. Civil liability is a never ending can of worms. A civil case depends upon how much money a plaintiff or his attorney is willing to spend, or how much spaghetti they are willing to throw at the wall to see if it sticks. The role of a civil jury is to decide based upon a preponderance of the evidence and make a decision

If you are going 14 mph over the speed limit on bald tires with faulty brakes with no outside mirrors while eating a hamburger and changing the radio station in the rain and you are 1000 lbs under your payload rating... you are likely to be civilly liable for excessive damages. If you are doing only one or two of those things, maybe you aren't liable for excessive damages.

Either way, that is why you have INSURANCE. Your insurance provider would have to incredible burden to refuse to pay a claim. Heck, insurance covers drunk drivers that speed, run red lights, drive on the wrong side of the road and then hit 4 parked cars. Unless the plaintiff is suing for excessive amounts of money and actually wins a ridiculous award over your insured value, you don't have to pay a penny. In order to win a ridiculous civil award, the plaintiff would have to prove gross negligence. 500 lbs over a payload rating, but still under the tire and placard rating is not gross negligence.

spoon059 wrote:

otrfun wrote:
You choose to see the state laws pertaining to GVWR/GCWR as arbitrary, unenforceable, generally ineffective, and the manufacturers GVWR for warranty purposes only.

I choose to see them otherwise.

You can choose to see anything that you want... that doesn't change reality though. There are multiple quotes in this thread referencing LEGALITY of towing over your manufacturers stickered GVWR. The fact of the matter is that there is ZERO legal basis for the stickered GVWR.

Now, if you chose to stick to the numbers listed on that sticker, that is absolutely your right. I have a 3/4 ton truck and have never exceeded my 10K lbs GVWR when towing. That doesn't mean that it is inherently UNSAFE nor ILLEGAL if I chose to do so.

I am simply responding to those people that incorrectly state as fact that it is ILLEGAL to tow over the number on a sticker from the factory. That is patently false, regardless of your opinion.

If you want to argue that it is BETTER to tow with a 1 ton than a 3/4 ton, that is absolutely fine. That is a matter of opinion to which we are all entitled to have. But LEGAL is a fairly well defined standard...

I never questioned the legality of towing over GVWR but I don't think in my opinion its safe to do.

ShinerBock wrote:

CWSWine wrote:


You must operate a motor vehicle on public roads withing the manufacture specs. Heck that in my grand daughter handbook.

When I sat on jury for traffic accident is was on the questionare that each jury had to fill out. The question was something like this. "Was the motor vehicle operated within manufacture specs -- YES OR NO -- if yes what percentage of the fault would you assign 1 to 99 percent.

I call BS.

I call BS as well. And if I were the engineer called in as expert witness I'd have a fun time proving the jury wrong.

Many OEM "specs" are strictly performance or warranty driven. Case in point, if a truck with 4.10 has a higher GVW or tow rating, then it's a performance or power train related spec. If a brake hose failed and caused an accident, then it's completely unrelated to the rear end ratio.

On the other hand, if a brake overheated causing an accident, and the operator is over GAWR, then he very well could be at fault. Because braking capacity is included in axle rating.

If you want to play this game, any part you choose that deviates from OEM could invalidate your GAWR, and put you at fault. If OEM specified a semi metallic pad with "FF" friction code, and you slapped on Wagner Thermo-Quiets with "EE" rated ceramics, then an OEM engineer could argue your GAWR is invalid, and therefore you're at fault if your brakes overheated causing an accident.

See where this goes? If you follow the rules to the letter, you better sit at home on your couch and not go anywhere.

CWSWine wrote:


You must operate a motor vehicle on public roads withing the manufacture specs. Heck that in my grand daughter handbook.

When I sat on jury for traffic accident is was on the questionare that each jury had to fill out. The question was something like this. "Was the motor vehicle operated within manufacture specs -- YES OR NO -- if yes what percentage of the fault would you assign 1 to 99 percent.

I call BS.

CWSWine wrote:

BobKrogstie wrote:

stickdog wrote:

Txsurfer wrote:
Well after reading many posts and researching payload caps ( diesels) ..it appears to me that if you are even thinking about a 5th wheel you should go with a 1T class truck where as a 3/4T should be able to handle most BP types. I know this a generalization but seems pretty accurate no? The payload is the really the deciding factor from what I have seen and the pin weights are just too high on 5th wheel toyhaulers. That is if you want to stay in-line with the law atleast.

What law is that?

The law(s) of physics and common sense.

You must operate a motor vehicle on public roads withing the manufacture specs. Heck that in my grand daughter handbook.

When I sat on jury for traffic accident is was on the questionare that each jury had to fill out. The question was something like this. "Was the motor vehicle operated within manufacture specs -- YES OR NO -- if yes what percentage of the fault would you assign 1 to 99 percent.

Civil or legal court?!?
Civil has a different guilty level than legal. Gray is allowed vs black and white only.

Marty

BobKrogstie wrote:

stickdog wrote:

Txsurfer wrote:
Well after reading many posts and researching payload caps ( diesels) ..it appears to me that if you are even thinking about a 5th wheel you should go with a 1T class truck where as a 3/4T should be able to handle most BP types. I know this a generalization but seems pretty accurate no? The payload is the really the deciding factor from what I have seen and the pin weights are just too high on 5th wheel toyhaulers. That is if you want to stay in-line with the law atleast.

What law is that?

The law(s) of physics and common sense.

You must operate a motor vehicle on public roads withing the manufacture specs. Heck that in my grand daughter handbook.

When I sat on jury for traffic accident is was on the questionare that each jury had to fill out. The question was something like this. "Was the motor vehicle operated within manufacture specs -- YES OR NO -- if yes what percentage of the fault would you assign 1 to 99 percent.

We have 2 2006 F350 SRW on our lot: one is a 5.4 reg cab, the other 6.0 diesel.
9900 GVW for the Gasser, 11,400 GVW for the diesel.

Just to add to Shiner pointing out some 3/4 ton trucks are the same mechanically as a one ton SRW truck.
We can buy a F350 SRW 6.7 diesel crew cab 172" wheelbase 4x4 same front and rear axles same tires and wheels with all the same options with a 10000 GVWR or a 11300 GVWR. Just another example of why GVWR or a GVWR based payload sticker number isn't used to determine how much load a truck can legally carry.

TX and CA (and other states) use the GVWR and/or GCWR of various RV's (motorhomes, TV's and trailers) to determine whether a state issued Class A/B/C (non-DOT) license is necessary. It would seem, at least in some states, the DMV and law enforcement view GVWR/GCWR as a bit more than arbitrary and/or a "warranty number".

California like all state don't use a GVWR to determine any truck gross weight or axle/tire loads.....nor will they use a GCWR as its not on any truck in the USA.

This is a paste and copy email that gets posted quite often when the GVWR/GCWR topic comes up on a RV website. Its long so I snipped for content (and no its not my email).

Question to CA DOT;
Q: “Many of the owners travel over their tow vehicle GVWR and /or
GCWR. Are there any state laws against this? Or does the owner just
take the risk if they wish?”

Answer from S. B. DOWLING, Captain;
*Section 1085(d) of Title 13 California Code of Regulations prohibits
the loading of tires above the maximum load rating marked on the tire,
or if unmarked the maximum load rating as specified in the applicable
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard, or in a publication furnished to
the public by the tire manufacturer. This would most likely happen in
the case of a pickup truck towing a large fifth wheel travel trailer, as
those types of trailers tend to transfer a larger portion of their
weight to the last axle of the towing unit causing that axle to exceed
the tire load limits.*

As you see in CA or any state GVWR doesn't determine how much load any truck can carry which is along the line of a 3/4 ton truck and how much pin weight it can legally carry...which is the last axle/tire load ratings of a 3/4 ton truck.

In the case of a truck pulling a trailer my state also is just like CA and uses axle/tire load rating as we have no weight for registration purposes on a non commercial vehicle.