Towing above 65

Well, how can the trucker or witnesses PROVE his speed?

Umm .. Let's see.. I was going 68 mph when he passed me.

jaycocreek wrote:

The point of my post was to point out that it is almost 100% impossible to prove an accurate speed that the truck was traveling and therefore conclude that SPEED was to blame.

Unless you are the trucker or the others involved who saw it!

Well, how can the trucker or witnesses PROVE his speed?

After they have PROVEN his speed, how can they know for certain that nothing other than speed was the root cause?

Please, if you have proof I would LOVE to see it. It sounds to me like you have second hand knowledge of a gut instinct by someone who has no technical training in collision investigation. That is quite a jump from PROOF.

The point of my post was to point out that it is almost 100% impossible to prove an accurate speed that the truck was traveling and therefore conclude that SPEED was to blame.

Unless you are the trucker or the others involved who saw it!

legolas wrote:
I catch your drift......I spent 20 years as a traffic engineer in the Miami area specifically with accident records, built a computerized data base for recording all accident data etc and am familiar with accident reconstruction...there are numerous methods to estimate speed besides skid marks...one being the number of times the vehicle rolled over from the point where the incident started....but most importantly, and I assume as a leo you would agree is "too fast for conditions" Florida especially has all posted speed limits conditioned by "the conditions existing at the time of the accident" and assumes a bright sunny day wiith no complicating ambient conditions, toss in dusk, rain, etc etc. and a 55 mph speed limit is no longer an absolute. So, negligence and speed....yes to both...the accident itself is proof of both.

There are indeed numerous methods to estimate speed. Skid to stop is the most accurate, and even then has a WIDE range of values. Roll over is effected by MANY things and has a MUCH wider range of values.

The point of my post was to point out that it is almost 100% impossible to prove an accurate speed that the truck was traveling and therefore conclude that SPEED was to blame. We have no clue what the speed was. Even with best estimates the speed range is likely in excess of 30 mph. That means maybe he was doing 80... but maybe he was doing 50.

Regardless of the speed, was it the SPEED that caused the collision? That is the idea that is being debated here and that is why I took offense to his assertion that because his son is a firefighter on the scene he KNOWS that speed, in and of itself, was the cause of the collision. He has no idea if that is the case.

He then updated his "facts" to include that the camper driver was attempting to pass the semi. Lets assume that is the case for the time being.

Suppose that the RV guy is trying to pass the semi and lets ignore the speed for this scenario. RV guy is trying to pass and running out of room.
Maybe RV guy goes slightly off the roadway as he runs out of travel lane and hits an object and loses control and crashes. Does it matter if he is doing 50 or 80? Probably not.
Maybe RV guy cuts in front of the semi and clips the rear of his trailer on the front of the semi, loses control and crashes. Does it matter if he is doing 50 or 80? Again... probably not.
Maybe RV guy has a catastrophic tire failure and loses control.
Maybe RV guy has some other catastrophic mechanical failure.

Do you get it yet? The SPEED has not been proven to be a factor in the collision. To post the picture with no factual basis behind the collision and claim that SPEED was the precipitating factor is absurd.

I wasn't there. I don't know if the speed caused the collision, exasperated injuries or had a factor in the wreck. Its completely possible that speed was the factor. The guy that posted the picture and claimed the causation was speed has provided NOTHING to back it up.

Are you more likely to have injuries at a high speed collision? Absolutely.

Does driving at a higher speed reduce your time to react to a traffic problem? Absolutely.

Are there some people who are unsafe drivers even BELOW the speed limit? Absolutely.

Is driving an RV at 68 mph INHERENTLY less safe than driving an RV at 55 mph? NO! This is my entire point. The older driver, the distracted driver, the inexperienced driver, the inattentive driver has a MUCH higher likelihood of crashing at 55 than a younger driver with experience who isn't distracted by eating/texting/talking on phone/looking at a map/etc and is paying attention to road conditions around him.

People here make the argument that anyone driving faster than "X" speed is a maniac and will kill everyone on the road. They also make the argument that they are safer simply because they drive at "Y" speed. That is foolish.

My sister is a PERFECT example. She drives very slow, but she doesn't have a clue what is going on around her. She will drive below the speed limit, but she barely pays attention to the car in front of her, let alone the car 2 cars in front of her or anyone next to her.

Common sense will tell you that if the car 2 cars in front of you slams on his brakes, you either need to prepare to slow down or switch to an open adjacent lane. She is driving slowly... but she isn't prepared to make a lane change if necessary because she has NO CLUE if someone is beside her. She isn't prepared to make an emergency stop, because she has NO CLUE that the guy 2 cars in front of her is stopping, therefore she is going to need to stop suddenly too.

The problem on this forum is location. Everyone gives an opinion based on where they are all the time. Like myself, the only time I have been back east for any time was in the Army at Fort Benning Georgia, so I really have know idea about towing RV's back there.

I give my opinions based on the North West mountains where I live. Others appear to do the same so guess what, we don't always agree because it is a totally different ride.

The problem on this forum is location. Everyone gives an opinion based on where they are all the time. Like myself, the only time I have been back east for any time was in the Army at Fort Benning Georgia, so I really have know idea about towing RV's back there.

I give my opinions based on the North West mountains where I live. Others appear to do the same so guess what, we don't always agree because it is a totally different ride.

legolas wrote:

LarryJM wrote:

Whiskeyjack44 wrote:

PRodacy wrote:
In New Mexico and Colorado I don't believe I've ever seen anyone towing at less than 70. Usually the TTs stay with the rest of the traffic at 75.

Reading some of these posts I thought, "These guys have never towed the Southwest." Yup, ya either tow a little faster than you may be used to, or you hold up half the state behind you. Then when the oncoming traffic clears you better turn off your hearing aid and don't look to the left when they start streaming around you.

I've towed out west all along both I-10 and 40 including the northern I-80 route from Ca back to Wi and never found an issue towing at 60mph and as I've said before, I stay in the slow lane and could care less who, what and how fast folks "HAMMER DOWN" in the lanes to the left of me and whiz by. Not many, but some of the 60mph governed 18 wheelers also seem to do fine so all this hyperbole about towing less than IMO these excessive speed is just the proverbial "red herring".

What really concerns me is the misplaced logic used by those that think they have to "keep up with the JONES" and tow at 70, 75, 80 just because non RVers are going at those high speeds.

Larry

X2

Hey, as long as we keep up to a reasonable speed in the right lanes of the Interstates and multi-lane freeways, there's seldom a problem. The problem comes to a head with the two lane secondaries which I was refering to ("oncoming traffic"). Some of the legal speeds and traffic flow speeds on these are pretty fast, so if we can't/won't keep up on these roads, then the right lanes of the Interstates are where we belong. We have to weigh how fast is safe, how comfortable we are, and how much of a problem our speed, or lack of, will cause for ourselves and others in each situation.

legolas wrote:
more than likely the cause of the accident was some fool invading the truckers safe space that caused the accident....not the trucker....anyone who has towed an RV more than 50 feet has experienced the morons on the road ....those folks who have no idea how to merge into traffic from the on ramp or are to stupid to anticipate their exit and shoot across 3 lanes of traffic to get to the exit or decide the exit was the wrong one and begin to back up... and on and on ad nauseum........so many of the folks involved in accidents were actually the unsuspecting victims of an idiot violating not only traffic laws but common sense as well.....yep, you can't fix stupid

What you are describing is how people drive in OHIO. Once again, someone easily states that 75 is inherently unsafe with NO context of location, conditions or equipment. Amazing how few on this forum have the ability to reason through gray areas, and instead quickly pronounce everything as either black or white with no need for further discussion.

Get out on the flats out West where Jimlin, Turle n' Peeps and some others tow, where you are the only vehicle that you can see either ahead of you or behind you, and 75 doesn't start to look so fast. Heck the Western KY parkway is like that...you can drive hours and count the number of other vehicles on one hand sometimes.

On Edit, forget to say hope you feel better legolas :)

Yea, I'm home with the flu and nothing else to do.........

spoon059 wrote:

jaycocreek wrote:

How did you conclude that the accident was caused by solely by speed and not by equipment failure, improper loading, improper hitch adjustment, driver tuning the radio, or other driver error or equipment problem?

My son was there as a first responder and extracted the victims. He was privy to what happened from those involved and who saw it and investigated it.

I don't mean to call you a liar, but this smells of nonsense. I worked as a patrol officer for over 12 years and have investigated thousands of accidents, from minor fender benders to multi car fatal collisions. Most jurisdictions have dedicated reconstructionists that actually investigate fatal wrecks. Being a first responder to the scene, like I was, wouldn't make you any more privy to the investigation than some guy standing on the other side of the road watching. Investigations take days or even weeks... its not CSI where everything happens and gets wrapped up in an hour.

#1 A first responder on the scene doesn't know what speed a vehicle was traveling without asking the driver, and even then they lie most of the time. Unless your son saw evidence, such as a quarter mile of brake skids in the road, its virtually impossible to determine speed just standing their looking. Even if you had a quarter mile of skids, that doesn't mean excessive speed as much as it may signify mechanical failure. Heck, I can drag my wifes car behind my truck and lay down a mile of skid marks and we can only be traveling at 10 mph.

#2 Every witness of a car crash will ALWAYS say that the other guy was speeding. My favorite was when someone would make a left turn and get broadsided. I would ask them what happened, they would almost always tell me, "That guy was speeding!!!". I would then ask, "why did you pull out in front of him if you knew he was speeding?" That caused them to stop and look confused. Then I would ask them to estimate how fast the car was traveling and inquire about any certifications or training they had on speed estimation. Surprisingly, not a singly at fault driver could ever provide me with any competent training in speed estimation. Witnesses to wrecks are often ignorant about what really happened. Usually they hear the crash, turn and look and see the aftermath and they try to piece it together in their mind.

For example I caught a serious wreck on my dash cam a couple years ago. The at fault driver was driving next to me and our light turned red. I slowed and stopped, he was distracted and drove right through it. He hit a car broadside that was traveling left to right at about 60 mph. I had multiple witnesses tell me the car was moving right to left (nope) that the at fault vehicle was the on traveling perpendicular to me (nope) they got the colors of the vehicles wrong... all kinds of stuff. They weren't trying to lie, they just didn't actually see the impact. They wanted to be helpful and tried to piece it together, but they just didn't understand the dynamics of a motor vehicle collision.

#3 Even if that crash was reconstructed, you would have a hard time proving a speed. Most speed calculations are done with a skid to stop equation. In this case the camper flipped over, so it didn't skid until it stopped. It would be almost IMPOSSIBLE to estimate speed because the truck likely skidded/slowed some before it flipped. Then it appears as though the semi struck and pushed it while it was flipped, so you can't estimate the slip coefficient of the side of the trailer or the truck.

#4 Even IF they were able to provide some speed estimation, it would be a broad range. Even in skid to stop scenarios it was common to see a speed estimate range of 20 mph. That means that the truck MIGHT have been going 70, or it could have been going 50. Definitely no way to PROVE that the speed was excessive.

#5 Did your son make any statements about any mechanical failures? Is it possible the truck suffered a sudden catastrophic tire failure that caused the truck to lose control? He could be doing 50 mph, lose a tire, lose control of the truck and swerve in front of the semi and still die. The problem wasn't SPEED, the problem could have been mechanical. Then again, he wouldn't know that on scene. That would be part of the follow up investigation where they inspect tires, brakes, mechanical systems, etc. Again, that takes days or weeks to determine.

#6 Any mention of any other involved vehicles? Perhaps another vehicle cut in front of the truck, causing him to swerve and strike the semi.

#7 Any wind gusts? I think we have all seen the video of the 1 ton truck pulling a trailer at slow speeds through a construction zone and the wind knocking the trailer over. That would be catastrophic, speed having no bearing on the equation.

#8 How did the driver die? Is it possible he had a medical emergency that influenced his driving? Until an autopsy is completed, it is impossible for your son to know. Perhaps he had a non fatal stroke and lost control. His body would still show horrible trauma... but it would have been completely irrelevant to the collision. Autopsies can take anywhere from a day to several weeks to pinpoint definitive cause of death.

Do you catch my drift? Its super easy to post a picture and an uninformed opinion. Doing so does not make it proof of negligence or speed.

I catch your drift......I spent 20 years as a traffic engineer in the Miami area specifically with accident records, built a computerized data base for recording all accident data etc and am familiar with accident reconstruction...there are numerous methods to estimate speed besides skid marks...one being the number of times the vehicle rolled over from the point where the incident started....but most importantly, and I assume as a leo you would agree is "too fast for conditions" Florida especially has all posted speed limits conditioned by "the conditions existing at the time of the accident" and assumes a bright sunny day wiith no complicating ambient conditions, toss in dusk, rain, etc etc. and a 55 mph speed limit is no longer an absolute. So, negligence and speed....yes to both...the accident itself is proof of both.