Wabasco or espar diesel heaters

I am planning on getting a Host Rainier and either having it built without the furnace and water heater if they will do it or I will remove them and install a diesel Aqua-Hot in the basement. This way I can install theater seating where the dinette is and I gain a lot of room where the water heater usually goes.

http://www.aquahot.com/Products/RV/400D.aspx

I know at Alaskan campers they have installed at least one Wallas brand diesel fired stovetop/furnace in one of their new units, a couple years ago as a special order for a particular customer. This equipment comes as kit and includes a 2.5 gallon on board diesel tank, which itself must be installed somewhere on the TC. A very nice set up, efficient, quiet, and very low amp draw. A couple years ago it was $2600 Just for the equipment/kit, not including installation. If still intetested you might contact Alaskan, even if interested in another brand tc, just to find out the follow up on that. Also I know these Wallas systems are used in some class B vans, and some of the expedition vehicles.

My old 1987 Lance was drafty and guzzled propane when it was cold out. My Arctic Fox has the all weather package so it is well insulated and it is not drafty. Even so, there are small areas where there was no insulation. I have insulated a couple of those.

Hemi Joel wrote:
I dry camp most of the time, and initially had the same concerns as the OP. Diesel is easy to get and easy to store. But what I found in practice, (several years of winter traveling) is that the 60 pounds of propane in my Arctic Fox 1150 lasts a long time. Long enuff that I would not consider switching to diesel. I can usually go a couple weeks between fills, depending on the temperature. This year, I left Minnesota feb 1, went to Colorado, Utah, Nevada, CA, AZ, and back home 5 weeks later. There was a cold snap across the north and the southwest. I ran the furnace every night in the south, and continuous in the north + the water heater and fridge. I was plugged in about 6 nights total, and ran a little electric cube heater 4 of those nights. The other 2 I didn't bother, I just let the furnace run. I refilled the tanks once on the trip. How long do you plan to be out away from a propane fill?

This is some great feedback and can be categorized under "very useful info", thank you. The camping we have done in the past used propane a lot faster, or so it seemed. It was older equipment and smaller tanks so it may have just felt that way. I crave simplicity so having one fuel to run everything is where I naturally gravitate. Diesel and solar was my plan but maybe I need to open up to the idea of propane.

I dry camp most of the time, and initially had the same concerns as the OP. Diesel is easy to get and easy to store. But what I found in practice, (several years of winter traveling) is that the 60 pounds of propane in my Arctic Fox 1150 lasts a long time. Long enuff that I would not consider switching to diesel. I can usually go a couple weeks between fills, depending on the temperature. This year, I left Minnesota feb 1, went to Colorado, Utah, Nevada, CA, AZ, and back home 5 weeks later. There was a cold snap across the north and the southwest. I ran the furnace every night in the south, and continuous in the north + the water heater and fridge. I was plugged in about 6 nights total, and ran a little electric cube heater 4 of those nights. The other 2 I didn't bother, I just let the furnace run. I refilled the tanks once on the trip. How long do you plan to be out away from a propane fill?

Simplicity is crucial in RV.
I had Webasto hydronic in older motorhome and it was constant problem.
That thing had like 8 prone to failure components, (I remember 3 motors and lot of switches) so when I fixed 1, after few hr the other gave up.
Components are hard to buy even if you can DIY repair.
Propane RV system not only are "almost" bulletproof, but easy to buy parts.
I had control board going bad on my WH 2500 miles from home. I placed order on line and had it waiting for me at my destination 5 days later. 3 minutes to replace.

I had thought of going this route with my TCer but never did for many reasons.

You do not say if you are thinking of the air or liquid heater. I am thinking you mean the air as you mention separating the camper and truck and while you can with either if you are using the heater to heat your coolant it presents a lot more challenges that is not really a benefit with a truck camper like multiple reservoirs, pumps, etc that will take up space all so you can use the two units seperately.

I currently have a Espar Airtronic (think it is the B4 - gas version) in a Ford van I am camperizing and so far I love it, but that is not a lot of testing on my part thanks to the horrible weather this winter/spring. As it is a van it is easier to tap into the fuel source on the vehicle and the fact I do not already have propane built in or appliances already there is no cost difference going this route. If you do decide to tap into the vehicle's fuel the pump for the Espar has a limited lift range so the separate tank will probably be required as with a truck camper you will have to run a lot of line from the fuel pump to the camper because of the height, and again if you want to run the heater off the truck this would not work.

There are a lot of benefits of the Espar but honestly unless you are doing world travels in my opinion the benefits are not going to outweigh the issues, costs, changes that you will be required to do in a truck camper. Just switching out appliances if you buy a already built unit will require a new furnace, hot water tank, stove, fuel storage tank and lines. If you already have propane then why not use that?

Tlhfirelion wrote:

You touched on something that had crossed my mind. Thats the storage space I could get my removing the furnace and duct work if/when replacing the furnace with the diesel heater. I do not know yet if I could (or would want too) have a camper made without a furnace or stove with the intention adding a convection cook top and diesel heater. Also, what companies that allow you to build your own camper would allow you to delete such options and if/how that would affect a warranty. Thank you for your reply.

I'm not sure which builders would allow leaving the furnace and water heater out. You could replace them with storage doors, but if ordering new it would be better to have a proper storage compartment there. If you are going to use a forced air diesel heater like the Espar or Webasto, far better to have them install the ductwork for it, this would not be easy on a built unit. Also, you'd want the hot water lines run if you are going to have running hot water. Beyond warrantee, there is resale value to consider.

You might want to look at the Wallas products. These are used in boats and also RVs in Europe. They make forced air heaters (and these are more power efficient than the Webasto or Espar) but they also make a diesel fired cooktop which doubles as a small heater. The heat output is modest (6000 btu) but enough for a small 3 season camper. It is externally vented so no fumes or moisture issues. Doesn't heat domestic water though. And pricey.

Both Webasto and Espar make small diesel fired hydronic heaters which take little space. Be aware though, that the whole system required gets complicated and takes more space and power than you might think. There is a header tank for diesel, a header tank for coolant, a circulation pump, heat exchangers for air and domestic hot water, a domestic hot water storage tank, combustion air intake and exhaust. Makes the simplicity of the Wallas - or normal RV propane stuff - seem more attractive! The forced air Webasto/Espar/Wallas are also simpler.

I also had them or equivalent units on class 8 trucks dating back to 1982. The first was a Cummins "Thermo Star" system installed in my 1980 Peterbilt 359. The only issues I had with them was too small diameter fuel lines gelling at cold temps. This was cured by dedicated routing next to heater hoses in the system but was always on my mind while parked in extreme temps overnight to the point I would let the truck run at night when the temps got down in the 0-10 degree range.

All systems were plumbed through the big engine to ensure easy starts the next day. These systems all operated on 12VDC.
All were very fuel efficient including my last rig, a 2005 KW, in which I had a Pro heat APU unit installed. It was also wired with a shore power plug which converted SP to 12vdc to power the unit when parked at a location where SP was available or Idle-Aire installations at truck stops.

HMS Beagle wrote:
These are very frequently used on yachts, though the yacht versions come from their European truck roots. There are no more or less moisture issues with them than a propane furnace - both produce moisture as a byproduct but both vent the moisture outside. Since the circulating fan is the major consumer of electrical power, they are similar on that as well as both have circulating fans. On fuel consumption, they are also similar, since all hydrocarbon fuels have about the same energy/lb. On economy, a bit better since diesel costs less/lb than propane usually. I have a diesel fired ITR hydronic system on the boat, you find these also in larger RVs.

There is no reason you could not replace the existing gas furnace with a diesel hot air one like the Webasto or Espar. If you are headed that direction, I might be tempted to use a hydronic system instead (which both Webasto and Espar also make) as you could also replace your propane fired water heater. The system I have on the boat heats both the living area and the domestic hot water. That eliminates most of the heavy draws on propane. On the boat I can go about 8 weeks on a 10 lb propane cylinder, since cooking is all that it is used for. In a camper with a propane fridge, a bit less but still a long time. If I built a custom camper I'd do just that. I'd have a gravity feed diesel header tank that I'd fill at the pump, or by transferring fuel from the truck when necessary.

In a replacement scenario, it will be far simpler to use a hot air diesel heater as the ducting etc. already exists.

My apologies, I did get my propane heat sources confused. The propane moisture issues im reading about come more from the seller portable propane heaters.

You touched on something that had crossed my mind. Thats the storage space I could get my removing the furnace and duct work if/when replacing the furnace with the diesel heater. I do not know yet if I could (or would want too) have a camper made without a furnace or stove with the intention adding a convection cook top and diesel heater. Also, what companies that allow you to build your own camper would allow you to delete such options and if/how that would affect a warranty. Thank you for your reply.