Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[BenK]

Think mainly in areas with higher humidity that will then condense in the
fuel tank over nite when it cools below the dew point

Hey, wonder if putting in a dryer inline with the tank vent system to
remove any moisture in the air that replaces consumed fuel...

[NinerBikes]

goducks10 wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

NewsW wrote:
Should start a pool on how much activity there is going to be in the next few months.

I hope Ford, GMC and VW / Audi have a metric ton of spare parts in the pipeline this year for the failures to come.

Kitted, boxed and shrink wrapped, ready to ship, complete with fuel testing kits included to verify all that "contaminated" fuel they keep claiming about killing their pumps. What is ironic is no one with older VW TDI's based on previous technology rotary pumps are having failures from this same "contaminated" fuel that everyone is getting. go figure? You'd think Bosch Service Centers all over the USA would be rebuilding totalled out old pumps from all this bad fuel. But they aren't! No complaints about it showing up on TDI Club... I wonder why? 😉

My strategy is to run Power Service white Bottle every fill up to keep my fuel from ever getting water build up from high humidity and condensation in the tank, and to keep my tank as close to full at all times, at least above 1/2 tanks during high humidity periods, keeping moist air out of the tanks.

I notice you don't mention Ram's CTD in your list. I'm guessing their HPFP is different from the other 3 brands (Ford, GMC and VW).

I've no idea who's fuel system /brand they use. If it's a Bosch CP 4.1 or 4.2 series HPFP on an inline 6 cylinder motor, let us know, and you can include it in the list, if failures start showing up.

[goducks10]

NinerBikes wrote:

NewsW wrote:
Should start a pool on how much activity there is going to be in the next few months.

I hope Ford, GMC and VW / Audi have a metric ton of spare parts in the pipeline this year for the failures to come.

Kitted, boxed and shrink wrapped, ready to ship, complete with fuel testing kits included to verify all that "contaminated" fuel they keep claiming about killing their pumps. What is ironic is no one with older VW TDI's based on previous technology rotary pumps are having failures from this same "contaminated" fuel that everyone is getting. go figure? You'd think Bosch Service Centers all over the USA would be rebuilding totalled out old pumps from all this bad fuel. But they aren't! No complaints about it showing up on TDI Club... I wonder why? 😉

My strategy is to run Power Service white Bottle every fill up to keep my fuel from ever getting water build up from high humidity and condensation in the tank, and to keep my tank as close to full at all times, at least above 1/2 tanks during high humidity periods, keeping moist air out of the tanks.

I notice you don't mention Ram's CTD in your list. I'm guessing their HPFP is different from the other 3 brands (Ford, GMC and VW).

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
Should start a pool on how much activity there is going to be in the next few months.

I hope Ford, GMC and VW / Audi have a metric ton of spare parts in the pipeline this year for the failures to come.

Kitted, boxed and shrink wrapped, ready to ship, complete with fuel testing kits included to verify all that "contaminated" fuel they keep claiming about killing their pumps. What is ironic is no one with older VW TDI's based on previous technology rotary pumps are having failures from this same "contaminated" fuel that everyone is getting. go figure? You'd think Bosch Service Centers all over the USA would be rebuilding totalled out old pumps from all this bad fuel. But they aren't! No complaints about it showing up on TDI Club... I wonder why? 😉

My strategy is to run Power Service white Bottle every fill up to keep my fuel from ever getting water build up from high humidity and condensation in the tank, and to keep my tank as close to full at all times, at least above 1/2 tanks during high humidity periods, keeping moist air out of the tanks.

[NewsW]

Should start a pool on how much activity there is going to be in the next few months.

[NinerBikes]

October 1st is when Winter grade fuel goes into effect here in the SouthWest, both gas and diesel. We will be seeing the MPG's drop per tank shortly. Whether the folks that refine it will add lubricants to the first batches at the refinery immediately after the change over remains to be seen.

If history repeats itself, a new rash of failed HPFP's should be showing up on other Ford Forums shortly, if the Moderators and Fanbois don't rip on or delete the new posters with the "$10,000 Ford won't fix it under warranty" dilemmas.

We are close to prime time for the failures to start showing, up, really close. Keep your eyes open, and ears to the ground, and if you know someone that is going through this, PLEASE, if in the USA, have them immediately report it to NHTSA and file an online report BEFORE towing it off to any Ford Dealership for repair. It could affect their outcome in a positive manner if NHTSA is contacted first, and get some compliance out of FOMOCO, being the weasels that they are.

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:

Here is something for you to thing about: Why does Bosch pull all the injectors too for rebuild when the HPFP fails, when VW claims damage from water in fuel? Or gas ingestion /misfuel, or fuel is contaminated? Simple part, no? Something in that system, with high pressure, high heat in the cylinder head, and bursts of voltage run through crystals does NOT play well with water turned to steam, or the instant cooling effect of water, or the conductivity of water.

Figure it out, Bosch.... we are waiting for the HPFP's to fail on the Passats.... so far, 2 failures, one may be a misfuel when an adblue pump was R&R'd on a gals car in Atlanta, GA on TDI club. Some folks believe it was dealer induced?

When the HPFP fails, metal particles likely will damage the injector ceramic ball valve.

Interestingly, the high cost of the Piezo Electric injector is causing a comeback of the solenoid valve --- a lot cheaper to make.

[NinerBikes]

ricatic wrote:
Ninerbike's news about the VW letter has found it's way into the FTE discussion. I wonder how that will go over at FTE? They are basically blind to the real world facts that the pumps are very much the same internally. I do not expect such an admission of "manufacturer shortcomings" to come from Ford any time soon...

Shame on Ford

Regards

Something needs to be clarified here... VW of America does not send this email out to everyone with a TDI... I specifically emailed them requesting the information... on the internet, and they politely called me back and told me that my V6 TOUAREG has a 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty on the HPFP and the injectors. This is for 2011 and 2012 VW Touareg TDI's only... which have piezo ceramic injectors I believe all the inline 4 2.0 L TDI motors are covered for 5 years /60k miles for the powertrain warranty.

The only line of TDI's with solenoid injectors is the made in USA VW "CKRA" code motor, as found in the 2012 and 2013 passat TDI's in the North American markets. I own one of these also, and I love the way it drives, but it won't tow a 3000 pound empty 19 foot ultralight trailer, which is what I bought the new Touareg for.

Since I didn't consider a call back business like enough, or in writing, I called them back up and asked them to forward all responses to me via email, in writing.

As a reminder.... I have skin in the game on both of these Common Rail Boscch diesels. The latest and greatest and what appears to be the most reliable HPFP's are being made in Slovakia, I believe, not West Germany, by Bosch.


I would encourage every one to call/contact Ford Warranty department and get it via email in writing, what the warranty is on your Ford 6.7 diesel, and advise them that an engineering defect is being examined by NHTSA on Ford HPFP failures also. If VW has 100,000 mile confidence in the HPFP, why doesn't Ford, it's the exact same damn Bosch CP4.2 HPFP and injectors as in my Touareg TDI, or in a Porsche Cayenne TDI for 2013 or an Audi Q7 TDI.

Porsche Cayenne TDI

Ford needs to step up to the plate, and they won't if the consumer doesn't put some pressure on them, along with NHTSA... so if your HPFP blows up and does the grenade of shrapnel on your fuel system, file an online NHTSA report IMMEDIATELY, before you tow your truck in... Load that URL into your smart phone and have it with you at all times so you can file pronto.

Gotta love that moderator over at FTE to death... wish he'd be blessed with a HPFP failure himself that he gets to pay for out of pocket, some folks seem only capable of learning the hard way, instead of learning from others losses. Blind leading the blind, with a closed mind.

Here is something for you to thing about: Why does Bosch pull all the injectors too for rebuild when the HPFP fails, when VW claims damage from water in fuel? Or gas ingestion /misfuel, or fuel is contaminated? Simple part, no? Something in that system, with high pressure, high heat in the cylinder head, and bursts of voltage run through crystals does NOT play well with water turned to steam, or the instant cooling effect of water, or the conductivity of water.

Figure it out, Bosch.... we are waiting for the HPFP's to fail on the Passats.... so far, 2 failures, one may be a misfuel when an adblue pump was R&R'd on a gals car in Atlanta, GA on TDI club. Some folks believe it was dealer induced?

[45Ricochet]

ricatic wrote:
Ninerbike's news about the VW letter has found it's way into the FTE discussion. I wonder how that will go over at FTE? They are basically blind to the real world facts that the pumps are very much the same internally. I do not expect such an admission of "manufacturer shortcomings" to come from Ford any time soon...

Shame on Ford

Regards

Your still around buddy? Glad to hear your comments again.
Hope your doing well.
Rick

[NinerBikes]

ricatic wrote:
Ninerbike's news about the VW letter has found it's way into the FTE discussion. I wonder how that will go over at FTE? They are basically blind to the real world facts that the pumps are very much the same internally. I do not expect such an admission of "manufacturer shortcomings" to come from Ford any time soon...

Shame on Ford

Regards

The "V" design on my 2012 V6 Toaureg Bosch CP4.2 is almost identical to that on the Ford and the GMC diesels. The bore and the stroke, as well as cam lift might be modified slightly for more volume of fuel per stroke for the Ford and GMC versions, and the V8 version will turn the same as the cranks speed, while on my V6 it will run at 2/3 crank speed, but other than that, they are one and the same. I will say that running at less than crank speed is an advantage on the V6 over the V8. There are noted failures on the Audi Q7 and Touareg diesel models, but the VW warranty and 10 year 100,000 mile power train warranty has been in effect since the 2011 model came out in July or August of 2010 in the 3rd generation Touareg with the 7 or 8 speed automatic gear boxes.

405 ft lbs of torque, stock from a 3 liter diesel is a lot of fuel flowing through that pump and nozzles at 1800 to 2300 rpm, for it's displacement size.

[NewsW]

ricatic wrote:
Ninerbike's news about the VW letter has found it's way into the FTE discussion. I wonder how that will go over at FTE? They are basically blind to the real world facts that the pumps are very much the same internally. I do not expect such an admission of "manufacturer shortcomings" to come from Ford any time soon...

Shame on Ford

Regards

LOL... authoritative source from this thread?


I have to say, the science and physics behind this problem is worthy.

Not every day a thread can take on the collective expertise and resources of Bosch in their own defined area of excellence and show them a few things.

The ramifications of this failure goes way beyond the CP4, but the whole idea of using Diamond Like Carbon coatings --- until a lot more is known.

More than a few simulation models are being updated with the CP4 opps data.

[ricatic]

Ninerbike's news about the VW letter has found it's way into the FTE discussion. I wonder how that will go over at FTE? They are basically blind to the real world facts that the pumps are very much the same internally. I do not expect such an admission of "manufacturer shortcomings" to come from Ford any time soon...

Shame on Ford

Regards

[Jarlaxle]

The cars should be recalled, bought back, and destroyed...just like the 6.doh FOrds.

[NewsW]

The big stick is the part is an emission part.

Its failure affects emissions.

Ahem... that is much bigger a stick.

[NinerBikes]

It still seems that some of the VW dealerships have not gotten with the program and still try and screw customers for $8,000 repairs, while VW of America is desperately trying to avoid a recall on these TDI diesels for HPFP failures. In other words, they are doing the warranty work begrudgingly, only to hopefully avoid a full on expensive recall campaign, and unsuspecting customers will get fleeced.

My advice to ANYONE that has a Bosch HPFP failure is to pull the pressure sensor off the HPFP with a couple of torx screws, and take pictures of metal filings inside the pump. If the metal filings are there, immediately file a claim online with the NHTSA BEFORE you take your car in for service.

Upon dropping your car off at the dealership, notify the Service Manager that you've filed a complaint with the NHTSA for a dangerous motor stall condition on your car, and that NHTSA and VW of America will be contacting them shortly for compliance in the repair. The complaint file number is EA11003, leave that complaint # with the Service Manager and advise him that it has been escalated by NHTSA as an Engineering Defect on the HPFP. BTW, Ford is under the same investigation, any vehicle manufacturer that has diesel vehicles in the USA is under investigation, including Ford, Chrysler/Dodge and GMC, as well as MBZ, BMW and Audi.