Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[Flashman]

NewsW wrote:
Update on the update:

Several manufacturers stepped up to the plate and "voluntarily" extended the warranty on the HPFP to 10 years or 120,00 miles.

BMW, VW to start:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430408

Note BMW called it a EMISSION part --- which is my view all along.


VW issued an extended warranty for a few model years:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323&page=275



I am sure Ford will soon follow.


http://myfastgti.com/volkswagen/threads/15194-Warranty-Extention-Intake-Camshaft-Camshaft-Follower-a...



Interesting... comments about Bosch and how much of their correspondence got redacted:

[URL]


Additional bits:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3961352&postcount=4045


Their analysis of the issues.. told 2nd hand here:

Wow. Overall, it does not look good for VW. It looks to me like fuel is implicated in less than half of the supplied narratives and spreadsheets.

Early on, it looks like significant effort went into reducing the number of residual particles left behind from manufacturing.



"For half a year now there has have been no malfunctions ... with the CP4.2 V6-TDI. For the CP4.1 ... there have, however, been some issues"

"The tappet anti-rotation lock is currently a priority again ... still not convinced since, according to Bosch, the tappet rotator is only the end damage of a seizing/blocked roller"

"I came across a presentation from the year 2006, in which a significant cause for tappet turning and drive damage in the CP4 is known: the interaction between roller and roller suppport. For years later, this same fact is being pointed out as the solution to all our problems. What prevented us from implementing this finding earlier?"

[NewsW]

Update on the update:

Several manufacturers stepped up to the plate and "voluntarily" extended the warranty on the HPFP to 10 years or 120,00 miles.

BMW, VW to start:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=430408

Note BMW called it a EMISSION part --- which is my view all along.


VW issued an extended warranty for a few model years:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=308323&page=275


http://myfastgti.com/volkswagen/threads/15194-Warranty-Extention-Intake-Camshaft-Camshaft-Follower-a...



Interesting... comments about Bosch and how much of their correspondence got redacted:

[URL]


Additional bits:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3961352&postcount=4045


Their analysis of the issues.. told 2nd hand here:

Wow. Overall, it does not look good for VW. It looks to me like fuel is implicated in less than half of the supplied narratives and spreadsheets.

Early on, it looks like significant effort went into reducing the number of residual particles left behind from manufacturing.



"For half a year now there has have been no malfunctions ... with the CP4.2 V6-TDI. For the CP4.1 ... there have, however, been some issues"

"The tappet anti-rotation lock is currently a priority again ... still not convinced since, according to Bosch, the tappet rotator is only the end damage of a seizing/blocked roller"

"I came across a presentation from the year 2006, in which a significant cause for tappet turning and drive damage in the CP4 is known: the interaction between roller and roller suppport. For years later, this same fact is being pointed out as the solution to all our problems. What prevented us from implementing this finding earlier?"

[NewsW]

The biggest question I have on this issue is a water-oil, especially biodiesel that absorbs water.

It can be in the form of a emulsion, or if it gets cold enough, dispersed as droplets of ice that may not be trapped by filters.

Heat it up, and voila, it separates into water and oil.

Pumping it under high pressure would do just that.

[NewsW]

From Ford non-confidential Engineering Review:

ME14 : CARRY OUT THE FUEL SYSTEM DEBRIS CHECK
Carry out the Fuel System Debris Check. Refer to Section 4, Hard Start/No Start Diagnostic Procedures.

Note: More than 115 ml water in the fuel system is abnormal and indicates excess water in the fuel supply chain.

Failures caused by non-specified fuel are not covered by Ford Motor Company Warranty - refer to Owners Guide.
Note: Failures caused by neglecting to drain the fuel conditioner when water in fuel light has been illuminated

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM416584/INRD-EA11003-50107P.pdf

[Jarlaxle]

Less than 50 pumps per year, you mean? DOdge sold about 3/4 of a million Rams in those three years. Even if TEN PERCENT were diesel (it is actually much more, close to 30%), that would be a 0.2% failure rate. This dog just does not hunt, news-troll.

[NewsW]

Now that is an interesting gem:


146 failed Chrysler fuel pumps from 2009 – 2012 Ram Diesels.


That is the CP3 pump... that we thought is pretty good.

A8. The total number of warranty claims that may relate to the subject condition, for the subject peer vehicles, are listed below. The detailed response that lists the warranty claims, for the subject peer vehicles, as requested in Items a. through n. is provided in Enclosure 8 - CONF BUS INFO - Warranty Data, in a Microsoft
Access 2010 table, titled WARRANTY DATA (EA11-003) CONF BUS INFO.mdb,
which has been submitted under separate cover to the NHTSA Chief Counsel’s Office with a request for confidential treatment, which contains the warranty data.

Claim Description (may relate to alleged condition):


Number of
Warranty
Claims 146

High Pressure Fuel Pump (HPFP) Replacement (2009 – 2012 Ram
Subject Peer Vehicles)

Chrysler believes that over 100 or 2/3 of the warranty claims are not related to the condition that is being investigated, misfuelling or poor fuel quality.

146

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM416109/INRL-EA11003-50060P.pdf

a. The contributing factors for the HPFP issues seen by Chrysler in the subject peer vehicles are poor maintenance, water in fuel, improper fuel put into vehicle, dirty fuel, and HPFP quality.
b. The breakdown from the 60 customer complaints in the subject peer vehicles are improper fuel (35), poor maintenance (3), water in fuel or dirty fuel (10),
undetermined (12).

[NinerBikes]

Some new info on the bottom from NHTSA, includes a bunch of Ford reports dated Jan 2012 in here.

Save it to your hard drive.

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/documentList.xhtml?docId=EA11003&docType=INV

Edit: I've only read briefly some of the correspondence between VW Audi Group and Robert Bosch... this goes back to 2008... problems with the micron size of "dirt" (don't know how that translates from German to English in manufacturing procedures, but you don't want "dirt' or grit or particulate matter inside your assembled parts.

particle sizes were broken down to <50 micron, 50-100 100-200 200-400 micron, 400-600 micron size "dirt' found in assembly. Some of the "dirt consisted of FeP and JhP, which I assume are elements, but I've no idea what Jh is on the Periodic Element Table in german? Seems Audi VW was demanding finer dirt particle size restrictions in manufacturing... and Fe P would be iron with a phosphorous ion alloy blend?

Lots of reading, someone with more chemical and mfg backround than me in precision finishes, coating and parts needs to have a read on this VW file

[Flashman]

NinerBikes wrote:

Flashman wrote:
Nothing you say has any credibility - you are a just a Ford Boy.

Your post is ambiguous... what "you" in terms of poster names or handles are you referring to? You need to use the "quote" button in responding for your post to make any sense, so we know who "you" is.

If you can't figure out that NewsW is a hopeless Ford Fanboy then you need to go back and read through his posts.

He changes his story all the time. Except to defend the Ford 6.0!!

[NinerBikes]

Flashman wrote:
Nothing you say has any credibility - you are a just a Ford Boy.

Your post is ambiguous... what "you" in terms of poster names or handles are you referring to? You need to use the "quote" button in responding for your post to make any sense, so we know who "you" is.

[Flashman]

Nothing you say has any credibility - you are a just a Ford Boy.

[NewsW]

Just did a quick search for reman Bosch CP4.x pumps.


Well guess what... there is a supplier as of September 12, 2012!


The only problem is that it is this one:

In the case of diesel injection systems, Bosch has continuously expanded the range of exchange parts. The eXchange program offers, for example, products from the sectors of nozzle-holder assemblies, distributor pumps, exhaust-gas treatment systems, common-rail high-pressure pumps and injectors. Wholesalers and workshops will now also have access to the new high-pressure pump generation CP4, with 25 part numbers included in the range.

http://www.bosch-presse.de/presseforum/details.htm?txtID=5868&locale=en

Their slogan might go something like "we have met the enemy and it is Bosch".

Considering that the CP 4 was introduced not so long ago, that tells me they got a lot of cores!

[NewsW]

Someone need to call Oregon and ask if they are simply selling a brand new CP4 pump or a reman.

The jury is out based on that page description.

Based on what we know of how the CP4 fails, it is not rebuildable once it failed from the FMEA done in this thread.

That does not preclude other FM that are less damaging.

e.g. broken connector, or pump that was removed / recertified.

In order for the part to be remanufactured, the DLC coated parts have to be intact or pass spec as the coating is Bosch proprietary.

No one else I know of can duplicate the same coating.

[hawkeye-08]

NinerBikes wrote:

carringb wrote:

NewsW wrote:
There is at present, no second source (not even remans) of the Bosch CP4.

Oregon Fuel Injection is now rebuilding them. Only a $100 core charge (which means most of the cores are re-buildable).

http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=16#INJECTION_PUMPS_IDI

I don't have to go very far to find farmers in this area who have had their CP4 fail. Ford denied one of their claims. But this particular farmer has bought every tankful of diesel, since day one, from Pacific Pride. Pac Pride happens to test every single delivery at the storage tank, and keeps those tests indefinitely.

BTW - O.F.I. has a very good reputation with commercial fleets. Generally there rebuilds are preferred over factory stuff.

I see reman injectors, not a remanufactured CP 4.2 HPFP for a 6.7 Ford, or the accumulator or the individual fuel lines, all contaminated or destroyed.

Just have to scroll down a bit on the page to come to the pump..

2011 6.7 L Ford Powerstroke, High Pressure Common Rail CP4 Pump, BC3Z9A543A + $100.00 core 0445010649 $877.50

[NinerBikes]

carringb wrote:

NewsW wrote:
There is at present, no second source (not even remans) of the Bosch CP4.

Oregon Fuel Injection is now rebuilding them. Only a $100 core charge (which means most of the cores are re-buildable).

http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=16#INJECTION_PUMPS_IDI

I don't have to go very far to find farmers in this area who have had their CP4 fail. Ford denied one of their claims. But this particular farmer has bought every tankful of diesel, since day one, from Pacific Pride. Pac Pride happens to test every single delivery at the storage tank, and keeps those tests indefinitely.

BTW - O.F.I. has a very good reputation with commercial fleets. Generally there rebuilds are preferred over factory stuff.

I see reman injectors, not a remanufactured CP 4.2 HPFP for a 6.7 Ford, or the accumulator or the individual fuel lines, all contaminated or destroyed.

[ricatic]

blacksnapon wrote:
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!

You...sir...take the complete lack of facts in a century award...except for the part that Ford did not warranty the HPFP repair...not one other word in your post is correct...first...the warranty on my truck, including the fuel system is intact. Only the original repair was denied... second...the repairs were done at a Ford Certified Diesel Repair Facility. The repair in question was inspected by a Ford Field Service Engineer. He told the repairing dealer that his hands were politically tied and he could not warranty the HPFP failure...yes...that is what he said...the truck has been back in for 2 subsequent repairs which were paid under warranty...thirdly...where is the deception of which you have accused me? The truck was towed from one very dishonest and completely incompetent Ford dealer directly to a second Ford Authorized service facility. All parts from the first three repair attempts were with the truck. The only deception was the Nestle's drinking water bottle with less than 1/4 inch of water in the bottom from crooked dealership number one. The second dealer could not find one drop of water anywhere in the fuel system...

I find it very doubtful that anyone with any brains, knowing the facts of this "Shameful Ford Event", would pay such a crooked dealer to fix their truck under similar circumstances...but maybe you would...

Disregards