Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NinerBikes]

TriumphGuy wrote:


Curious about a few things...
- Niner, I think you mentioned the failures are still coming in with the VW vehicles, any idea if this is with the pump not made in Germany (DLC only on one surface IIRC)? (BTW you sound like a mtb riding, trailer pulling diesel fan, thought I was alone...)

Mountain biking involves driving to the mountains to ride new dirt, and most of us mountain bikers (within reason) are energy efficiency nuts and cheap bahstads too. So going diesel, going trailering and going camping are all a good fit. Pedaling my fat butt up hill is a constant reminder on a refresher course of efficiency, every day I try to bang out 2000 to 3000 feet of vertical climbing, earning my turns.

[RedRocket204]

OT

TriumphGuy wrote:
(BTW you sound like a mtb riding, trailer pulling diesel fan, thought I was alone...)

Nope. You are not alone. Maybe I should change my screen name to YetiBikes 😉

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

TriumphGuy wrote:

- News, last I remember your advice to existing owners was along the lines of choosing quality fuel, using only the Ford additive, staying on top of maintenance. Anything change?
- Is there any indication Ford is stepping up to replace these failed HPFP "more" than in the past?

I am very keen on buying a used 2012 when I can afford it but then again I'm wondering if I can afford to take a chance on a fuel system grenade. Wondering if a 200k ESP on powertrain will suffice. I'm also watching Rick's lead to see if the 2013 Rams are up to snuff.

No change for owners who own one now.

Do all spec maintenance with Ford spec fluids and filter, never allow all but minimum biofuels near one.

Only use Ford approved additives specifically approved for the 6.7 in the amounts approved.


Personally, I would not touch a used one until there is some resolution.

Too much risk.

You cannot know buying used if the previous owner misfueled it, put unapproved or non spec fuel in it, DEF in fuel...etc. without a tear down inspection.

If you must buy one, buy a 2013 brand new, where there is some likelihood that the dealer will stand up and back you.

Keep meticulous maintenance and fuel records with receipts.


Note... failures are still coming in... even with the redesigned pump from the new Czech factory.

Niner can speak to that.

That there are still failures coming in on the Czech built pumps still points to defective design if you ask me. That I am sitting on a 100,000 mile warranty on my 2012 Touareg TDI design for the power train says that I probably won't be keeping that Touareg much past 100,000 miles, not with a potential $16,000 repair on my nickle if the HPFP goes south.

Bosch needs to string some managers and some board of directors strung up and issued some pink slips.

[NewsW]

TriumphGuy wrote:

- News, last I remember your advice to existing owners was along the lines of choosing quality fuel, using only the Ford additive, staying on top of maintenance. Anything change?
- Is there any indication Ford is stepping up to replace these failed HPFP "more" than in the past?

I am very keen on buying a used 2012 when I can afford it but then again I'm wondering if I can afford to take a chance on a fuel system grenade. Wondering if a 200k ESP on powertrain will suffice. I'm also watching Rick's lead to see if the 2013 Rams are up to snuff.

No change for owners who own one now.

Do all spec maintenance with Ford spec fluids and filter, never allow all but minimum biofuels near one.

Only use Ford approved additives specifically approved for the 6.7 in the amounts approved.


Personally, I would not touch a used one until there is some resolution.

Too much risk.

You cannot know buying used if the previous owner misfueled it, put unapproved or non spec fuel in it, DEF in fuel...etc. without a tear down inspection.

If you must buy one, buy a 2013 brand new, where there is some likelihood that the dealer will stand up and back you.

Keep meticulous maintenance and fuel records with receipts.


Note... failures are still coming in... even with the redesigned pump from the new Czech factory.

Niner can speak to that.

[TriumphGuy]

Wow you guys, this has been quite the discussion. Yes I have looked at every post but I admit (NewsW/BenK) that I didn't read all the patents / articles quoted and sometimes got lost in some of the stratospheric discussion 🙂

I witnessed Rick's original thread on FTE and watched as the ordeal continued (through "resolution" if you will), kept up with numerous HPFP speculation threads and then I disappeared for awhile (real life came along). Also didn't know about this thread here. Recently came back to the 'net seeking an update on 2011+ 6.7s and noticed not much activity on the FTE side.

Curious about a few things...
- Niner, I think you mentioned the failures are still coming in with the VW vehicles, any idea if this is with the pump not made in Germany (DLC only on one surface IIRC)? (BTW you sound like a mtb riding, trailer pulling diesel fan, thought I was alone...)
- News, last I remember your advice to existing owners was along the lines of choosing quality fuel, using only the Ford additive, staying on top of maintenance. Anything change?
- Is there any indication Ford is stepping up to replace these failed HPFP "more" than in the past?

I am very keen on buying a used 2012 when I can afford it but then again I'm wondering if I can afford to take a chance on a fuel system grenade. Wondering if a 200k ESP on powertrain will suffice. I'm also watching Rick's lead to see if the 2013 Rams are up to snuff.

I still have a few years before making the jump so hopefully time will reveal more. Thumbs up to you guys for chasing this.

Anyway great thread for a recovering red light / green light enginerd...;)

[hone_eagle]

When I worked at Ford engine division to my best rec, failure rate for warrenty purposes was .01% .
Any higher( .02% ) quality dept had to expain what was being done about it, better be back to norm next month (.01%) or the quality people that told Dearborn 'its fixed' ...disappeared.

[NewsW]

Failure... VWs... reported here:

VW HPFP Pump Failures

Interesting, assuming some non-report bias, the rate is still in the range of .1% to 4%.

Calculation here:

Range

Now that leads us to a discussion of what is an acceptable failure rate?

Annual failure rates (all units in operation)

Below 10% sure

Below 5% sure

Given how catastrophic it is, I'd say, well below .1% for every year of operation, arithmetically added.

That still means in 10 years of ownership, every unit have a 1% change of failure.


Note that if a failure were to occur, the "savings" from operating a diesel is wiped out.


Given the unknown contribution of contaminated diesel and biofuels to the problem, I'd say buying a late model, CP4 HPFP / EPA 2010 diesel is now risky business unless it is given away for free.


The elephant in the room:

What is the failure rate of equivalent Heavy Duty / Medium Duty EPA 2010 diesel HPFP pumps?

Is this peculiar to the Bosch system or is everyone having problems with high pressure diesel injection?

[NewsW]

ricatic wrote:
prom queen...now that's funny

Ain't that aka General's "treat"?

[ricatic]

prom queen...now that's funny

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

ricatic wrote:

...where were you hiding when I was talking to my neighbor...;););)

Niner hung around as a fly on the wall at Botched HQ during the management meeting, before the recording got taken down under Strafgesetzbuch section 86a.

Enough years in manufacturing, Cost Analysis, BSing Program Managers at Dollar Day meetings every month and every quarter has made my BS Sniffer overly sensitive to such shenanigans.

I've owned enough German Engineering in the past 40 years to recognize traits in the tribe. Sadly, I am 1/2 German, and it is truly genetically programmed into us, like it or not. Deny, deny, deny probably cost Hitler the war, too. That and a little drug problem. In owning German product... my personal observation is that their metallurgy, craftsmenship and quality control is borderline 3rd world nation unless you pay rediculous amounts of money for ground lenses or cameras, which in the digital world, is dated also, just like Kodak.

German product does wonderful things, but it doesn't have great durability or last very long. It's like a Prom Queen, high maintenance, many get sick and tired of having to put up with their sh*t and dump them.

[NewsW]

ricatic wrote:

...where were you hiding when I was talking to my neighbor...;););)

Niner hung around as a fly on the wall at Botched HQ during the management meeting, before the recording got taken down under Strafgesetzbuch section 86a.

[ricatic]

NinerBikes wrote:

ricatic wrote:
I had an interesting discussion with my neighbor yesterday. He is a service/warranty engineer at VW. We discussed the VW CP4 issues. He is quite aware of all the problems...he did say some interesting things about why VW has extended their warranty coverage on HPFP failures...let's just say it was not their idea!!!!

...he just smiled when I asked if Ford was next....

Regards

The version I heard was that VW will do just enough to stave off a full blown recall campaign being implemented by NHTSA, so they very much begrudgingly do the replacement, at great expense to them out of pocket. Which is why every single person, regardless of if their dealership fixes or fixed the problem fuel system and HPFP or not, should file a complaint with NHTSA to get Bosch off their arses to fix the problem permanently. Bosch was so busy blaming contaminated fuel, water, or gas in diesel, there is a complete lack of accountability over there, with typical German arrogance of it always being operator error.

What came out in the results in the correspondence between VW and Bosch, much of which was redacted, was that there was a severe quality control cleanliness issue in manufacture and assembly of the HPFP units made in 2 German facilities, and that the required polish and internal finish was quite high. They moved production to Slovakia, and seem to be getting a better finished product now, but, IMHO, the design is still defective and faulty, certainly when the issue of alignment problems between cam and roller and follower and failure is well documented early on in the correspondence.

The worst part about all of this is that VW, Ford, Audi, Porsche, and GMC/Chevy have all been taking the heat for what is a subontractor Bosch design problem, and no one, not a soul, can get a word out of Bosch on their crappy design, production and implementation of this HPFP and the craptasticness of the whole design of their pump.


Here it is November, the 2012 VW Passat with solenoid injectors and 1800 bar HPFP pressure with a longer stroke and a smaller plunger bore for that pressure level, one year later, and the failures are exceedingly rare at this point in time. I am aware of only 2 being reported so far on TDIclub, one in Atlana GA, the other near San Francisco, CA, again, hot weather states.

So far, it's the 2000 bar and piezo injectors that continue to die like flies, lots and lots of 2009 jetta TDI's again showing up in the fall with dead, grenaded Bosch CP4.1 HPFP'S again this year, due to either heat or lack of lubrication.


As an aside, I am almost 100% certain that in Audi/VW / Porsche product, if you own a laptop and VCDS software and cable, you can log requested vs actual fuel pressure data through the OBD2 port.

...where were you hiding when I was talking to my neighbor...;););)

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:


What came out in the results in the correspondence between VW and Bosch, much of which was redacted, was that there was a severe quality control cleanliness issue in manufacture and assembly of the HPFP units made in 2 German facilities, and that the required polish and internal finish was quite high. They moved production to Slovakia, and seem to be getting a better finished product now, but, IMHO, the design is still defective and faulty, certainly when the issue of alignment problems between cam and roller and follower and failure is well documented early on in the correspondence.

The problem is, is that kind of cleanliness reasonable to expect from a unit operating in the field as opposed to the factory?

Is the issue with respect to surface cleanliness during the coating process and assembly at the factory?

Once it gets out in the field, it is unavoidable that some contaminants get thorough the filters, plus lots of particles sneak through at each filter change.

If the system is taken apart, more particles shed both upstream and downstream.

Rather fragile to me.

[NinerBikes]

ricatic wrote:
I had an interesting discussion with my neighbor yesterday. He is a service/warranty engineer at VW. We discussed the VW CP4 issues. He is quite aware of all the problems...he did say some interesting things about why VW has extended their warranty coverage on HPFP failures...let's just say it was not their idea!!!!

...he just smiled when I asked if Ford was next....

Regards

The version I heard was that VW will do just enough to stave off a full blown recall campaign being implemented by NHTSA, so they very much begrudgingly do the replacement, at great expense to them out of pocket. Which is why every single person, regardless of if their dealership fixes or fixed the problem fuel system and HPFP or not, should file a complaint with NHTSA to get Bosch off their arses to fix the problem permanently. Bosch was so busy blaming contaminated fuel, water, or gas in diesel, there is a complete lack of accountability over there, with typical German arrogance of it always being operator error.

What came out in the results in the correspondence between VW and Bosch, much of which was redacted, was that there was a severe quality control cleanliness issue in manufacture and assembly of the HPFP units made in 2 German facilities, and that the required polish and internal finish was quite high. They moved production to Slovakia, and seem to be getting a better finished product now, but, IMHO, the design is still defective and faulty, certainly when the issue of alignment problems between cam and roller and follower and failure is well documented early on in the correspondence.

The worst part about all of this is that VW, Ford, Audi, Porsche, and GMC/Chevy have all been taking the heat for what is a subontractor Bosch design problem, and no one, not a soul, can get a word out of Bosch on their crappy design, production and implementation of this HPFP and the craptasticness of the whole design of their pump.


Here it is November, the 2012 VW Passat with solenoid injectors and 1800 bar HPFP pressure with a longer stroke and a smaller plunger bore for that pressure level, one year later, and the failures are exceedingly rare at this point in time. I am aware of only 2 being reported so far on TDIclub, one in Atlana GA, the other near San Francisco, CA, again, hot weather states.

So far, it's the 2000 bar and piezo injectors that continue to die like flies, lots and lots of 2009 jetta TDI's again showing up in the fall with dead, grenaded Bosch CP4.1 HPFP'S again this year, due to either heat or lack of lubrication.


As an aside, I am almost 100% certain that in Audi/VW / Porsche product, if you own a laptop and VCDS software and cable, you can log requested vs actual fuel pressure data through the OBD2 port.

[ricatic]

I had an interesting discussion with my neighbor yesterday. He is a service/warranty engineer at VW. We discussed the VW CP4 issues. He is quite aware of all the problems...he did say some interesting things about why VW has extended their warranty coverage on HPFP failures...let's just say it was not their idea!!!!

...he just smiled when I asked if Ford was next....

Regards