Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NinerBikes]

Standyne paper


White paper on fuel, lubricity additives from tribology standpoint and HIBOCLE new testing methods f...






Fresh data found in SAE papers... Low and behold, Bosch KNEW about testing techniques used by ASTM in the USA for diesel fuel was not an accurate tribological representation testing format for the motions their HPFP internals went through... they developed a new HIBOCLE testing format which closer matched the engineering stresses and conditions of lubricity that their CP4.x pumps generated.

http://www.infineum.com/Documents/Fuels%20Technical%20Papers/SAE/2009-01-0848.pdf


Also note that they run German 5% RAPESEED based biodiesel in their testing, German Fuel, for lubricity... US uses waste vegetable oil, perhaps soy based, or animal fats, or, or... Bosch knew the fuel was a problem and their pump was unsuitable for use on US based fuel.... also noted that the viscosity of the diesel fuel (higher or thicker being better) is also a problem with hydro treated to remove sulfur diesel fuel.

This common position statement confirms the results of the white paper above submitted to the Society of Automotive Engineers.

http://www.stanadyne.com/docs/pubs/FIEM_Common_Position_Statement_2009.pdf

If you read the full paper, (and you should) you can clearly see what the temperature of the fuel running through the HFPF adversely affects the wear rate of the HPFP surfaces... what this means is that since your fuel is used to cool your HPFP, it is damn important to keep at least a 1/4 of a tank of fuel in your truck at all times, as your fuel is also recirculated as coolant. Running your fuel tank low is bad, bad bad for your HPFP, your are running your pump low on fuel as coolant.

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

milsuperdoc wrote:

Does anyone know if there's any other studies or attempts to replicate or discredit the Spicer report since it was done?

Yup.

The test done has no relevance to operating conditions of 2,000 bar and 150C normally experienced in a Diesel fuel pump circa Bosch CP 4.2

Same reservations noted in ASTM D975

And other studies I posted.

Yep, and that is the crux of the matter, Bosch did not test diesel fuels world wide under actual operating conditions before releasing this pump, and they have clearly discovered that a High speed reciprocity ball test under load has no resemblance to the fuel requirements for their HPFP under actual !50C 2000 bar fuel rail temperuatures under the hood of your truck or my VW Touareg or Passat TDI. I also have a sneaking suspicion that diesel fuel with low aromatic content of less than 10% or 5% as required by CARB in high density city transportation/population areas may very well aggravate the wear problems, versus high aromatic content diesel fuel sold in non populated, and non polluted areas.

[NinerBikes]

ricatic wrote:
There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

Ford has clearly misrepresented the pump rpm speed to the crank rpm speed in their document... that HPFP needs to have 2 full rotations to create 4 fuel injection pulsed timed very closely to the injector going off, per crank revolution.

They have stated in their document that it is a 1:1 ratio. That is patently false, the HPFP spins at twice the crankcase speed.

[NinerBikes]

carringb wrote:
Chevy cruze gets a diesel in the US. Guess what? They had to drop fuel pressure from 2000 to 1600 bar due to fuel quality issues.

Got a link that supports this statement?

[TriumphGuy]

Thanks Ben I hadn't seen the other one

[wearenh]

ooops... wrong thread

[BenK]

Latest question on this topic and linked it to maintain continuity

Looking for a Bosch fuel pump update

[carringb]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:


Wow, no baby Dmax but GM is going after the car market with an oil burner? :h I would never have guess it.

I would sure like to see some mileage figures for this engine and car. I would guess 45 to 50. Nice looking car.

I believe EPA spec was 41 hwy. about the same as the small turbo gas with the Eco package. But better power with the diesel. But small diesels (VW) seem to get much better then EPA in real life compared to DI-gas-turbo motors.

[Turtle_n_Peeps]

carringb wrote:
Huh it won't let me hyperlink right now. Here's the copy and paste link.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/08/why-gms-2-0-liter-diesel-is-cleaner-in-americas-cruze-than-it/

Wow, no baby Dmax but GM is going after the car market with an oil burner? :h I would never have guess it.

I would sure like to see some mileage figures for this engine and car. I would guess 45 to 50. Nice looking car.

[NinerBikes]

carringb wrote:
Huh it won't let me hyperlink right now. Here's the copy and paste link.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/08/why-gms-2-0-liter-diesel-is-cleaner-in-americas-cruze-than-it/

cruze diesel

[carringb]

Huh it won't let me hyperlink right now. Here's the copy and paste link.
http://green.autoblog.com/2013/02/08/why-gms-2-0-liter-diesel-is-cleaner-in-americas-cruze-than-it/

[carringb]

Chevy cruze gets a diesel in the US. Guess what? They had to drop fuel pressure from 2000 to 1600 bar due to fuel quality issues.

[coolbreeze01]

ricatic wrote:
We were at the Detroit Auto Show today...Deb and I wandered into the Ford display...We stopped to look at the new Dark Brown Platinum CC 6.7 that was on display. A staff person, provided by the UAW/Ford cooperative team, started a conversation with me. She found my story quite interesting...She took my contact info and promised that someone at Ford would be in touch... IF I am holding my breath...will I get as blue as the Ford KoolAid????

Spent a bunch of time looking over the 2013 Ram 3500 HD Dually Longhorn Edition...what a spectacular truck...

Regards

Curious about the fuel filtering. Any changes?

[bmanning]

ricatic wrote:
We were at the Detroit Auto Show today...Deb and I wandered into the Ford display...We stopped to look at the new Dark Brown Platinum CC 6.7 that was on display. A staff person, provided by the UAW/Ford cooperative team, started a conversation with me. She found my story quite interesting...She took my contact info and promised that someone at Ford would be in touch... IF I am holding my breath...will I get as blue as the Ford KoolAid????

Spent a bunch of time looking over the 2013 Ram 3500 HD Dually Longhorn Edition...what a spectacular truck...

Regards

I hate to wear the skeptic's hat but I doubt you'll hear from anyone; "I'm going to have someone contact you" is something that customer service rep types mumble in their sleep. Often, sadly, that call mysteriously never comes or if it does, it's the standard "we understand your concerns and will look into the matter further" and there you are, awaiting another call that may or may not come.

I spent a lot of my 20's in customer service positions and I can tell you, from experience, that when companies say it's about service, what they mean is it's about profit margin, period, end of story.

Your situation is stark proof; Ford valued $10,000 more than they valued retaining a life-long customer.

A wise man once said:

Shame on Ford.