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Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

ricatic
Explorer
Explorer
There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards
Ricatic
Debbie and Savannah the Wonderdachsund
2009 Big Horn 3055RL
2006 Chevrolet Silverado 3500 Dually LTX with the Gold Standard LBZ Engine and Allison Transmission
2011 F350 Lariat SRW CC SB 4WD 6.7 Diesel POS Gone Bye Bye
1,199 REPLIES 1,199

carringb
Explorer
Explorer
NewsW wrote:
There is at present, no second source (not even remans) of the Bosch CP4.


Oregon Fuel Injection is now rebuilding them. Only a $100 core charge (which means most of the cores are re-buildable).

http://oregonfuelinjection.com/index.php?pid=16#INJECTION_PUMPS_IDI

I don't have to go very far to find farmers in this area who have had their CP4 fail. Ford denied one of their claims. But this particular farmer has bought every tankful of diesel, since day one, from Pacific Pride. Pac Pride happens to test every single delivery at the storage tank, and keeps those tests indefinitely.

BTW - O.F.I. has a very good reputation with commercial fleets. Generally there rebuilds are preferred over factory stuff.
2000 Ford E450 V10 VAN! 450,000+ miles
2014 ORV really big trailer
2015 Ford Focus ST

Arizona1
Explorer
Explorer
blacksnapon wrote:
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!


So a Ford certified dealer works on the truck and Ford can't verify, REALLY? Rick would have an invoice for repairs showing part numbers. This would also be in the FORD data base. CAN"T BELIEVE YOU ACTUALLY WROTE THAT!

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
blacksnapon wrote:
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!


That was a hell of a first post from a newbie lurker of 8 or 9 months after joining.... almost like a planted troll is my guess.

NewsW
Explorer
Explorer
There is at present, no second source (not even remans) of the Bosch CP4.

Furthermore, the repair required replacing the injectors, associated tubing, none of it can be second sourced.

To date, AFAIK, and at least to the point of Rick's truck being broke, there is a longstanding policy that Bosch / Ford required every part to be sent back.

The only way to keep the old part is to buy a new one.

Therefore, there is no possibility of a scam repair from substandard parts.

FYI, the parts that were destroyed were not capable of being re manufactured --- it is totally busted.
Posts are for entertainment purposes only and may not be constituted as scientific, technical, engineering, or practical advice. Information is believed to be true but its accuracy and completeness cannot be guaranteed / or deemed fit for any purpose.

Flashman
Explorer II
Explorer II
blacksnapon wrote:
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!


This is such BS. If I can't have my truck repaired by any dealer but the one I bought it from then where does that leave me if I am the road, or if that dealer is incompetent and I cannot trust them?

Ford Diesels and dealers have some huge problems.

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
blacksnapon wrote:
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!



Pal, I respectfully disagree.... all the parts failed were Bosch Parts. There are no after market Bosch injections system parts you could put on that truck that were not Bosch/Ford injection parts... the whole fuel injection system is so integrated, no one could break or hack the codes to make something else come close to even working.

If that truck got running again, all the replaced parts had to be Bosch parts, through contract, supplied by Ford. Bosch is scared ****less every time they don't get a pump and injectors back about Chinese sabotage and reverse engineering, they have it locked up, the whole system, and control of all parts under warranty, and getting cores back. All that changes when you have insurance foot the bill for 10k, you should request and demand all parts be returned to the customer as evidence, as well as for Ford renegging on their warranty, or for class action lawsuits against Bosch / Ford for willful neglect and breach of contract in providing a defective pump part, designe, execution, and use of materials not adequate for the job they were designed to do.

A Bill of Materials, all Ford Bosch part numbers should be sufficient evidence that it was repaired with proper parts to proper specifications, to eliminate the question of if the warranty is still good. This Bosch problem and repair procedure is well known in diesel injection specialists parts providers.

The first Ford Dealership showed signs of complete incompetence working on diesel and fixing the problems, throwing part after part after part trying to get it to run for multiple days in a row. At what point does the customer realize incompetence in diagnosis and resolving the problem and getting the work truck up and running again? It's similar to being held under duress under such circumstances when your vehicle doesn't run, and you question whether the shop is doing more damage that good in repairing the main problem.

blacksnapon
Explorer
Explorer
Heres the problem: If Rick would have had the original repairing dealer fix his truck, paid for it, he'd have left with his warranty very much intact. Having his truck towed away without repairs being made, shows deception on ricks part, calling for an instant and unreversible warranty revocation. Here's why......Even though he had his truck repaired by a Ford dealer (in his case Lincoln), theres no way that Ford can verify that the truck was repaired to specs using Ford parts. How'd you like to buy a used truck assuming that the warranty was good, then suprise! Water or not, wear damage or not, THATS WHY HE WAS DENIED FURTHER WARRANTY!

NewsW
Explorer
Explorer
NinerBikes wrote:
Bosch built ZERO redundancy into the HPFP, and evidently did zero research in HPFP failure modes.



This is their redundancy:

Posts are for entertainment purposes only and may not be constituted as scientific, technical, engineering, or practical advice. Information is believed to be true but its accuracy and completeness cannot be guaranteed / or deemed fit for any purpose.

NewsW
Explorer
Explorer
stsmark wrote:
I missed the part where the clinical analysis provided here identified specific "batches" of pumps. Please provide a reference to the data. To isolate to batches is self defeating for this forum because it moves it from a design flaw to a manufacturing flaw.
Yes more than the pump itself, the flawed design is the fact it can do so much collateral damage with a failure.



The data set was provided by a large fleet customer.

Their data completely checked out.

The rest, I am afraid, is not public.
Posts are for entertainment purposes only and may not be constituted as scientific, technical, engineering, or practical advice. Information is believed to be true but its accuracy and completeness cannot be guaranteed / or deemed fit for any purpose.

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
stsmark wrote:
I missed the part where the clinical analysis provided here identified specific "batches" of pumps. Please provide a reference to the data. To isolate to batches is self defeating for this forum because it moves it from a design flaw to a manufacturing flaw.
Yes more than the pump itself, the flawed design is the fact it can do so much collateral damage with a failure.


When you look at how much redundancy Bosch built into the fueling programming for failed sensors, default settings, and the motor still being able to run with failed sensors, it boggles the mind that Bosch built ZERO redundancy into the HPFP, and evidently did zero research in HPFP failure modes. There are some teams at Bosch that deserve walking papers for such oversight.

I am thankful Bosch doesn't design fueling systems for power plants on planes or rocket ships.

stsmark
Explorer
Explorer
I missed the part where the clinical analysis provided here identified specific "batches" of pumps. Please provide a reference to the data. To isolate to batches is self defeating for this forum because it moves it from a design flaw to a manufacturing flaw.
Yes more than the pump itself, the flawed design is the fact it can do so much collateral damage with a failure.

Arizona1
Explorer
Explorer
NewsW wrote:
stsmark wrote:
alboy wrote:
So after all this speculating does anyone really have Real Facts that show it is a major problem with the new 2011 plus ford 6.7 diesels???


Frankly not that I have seen, warranty questions aside I think the actual failure rate is what would be considered normal attrition for the amount of units in service in regards to the 6.7.



"Normal" attrition is one thing.


"Normal" attrition not covered by warranty is another thing.


Depending on batch, there is a confirmed set of cases where an entire batch had failure rates in the double digit range.

If that is normal, I hate to think whether it applies to all vehicles.


Sorry hit enter to quick on the last response.


X2 on NewW's post!

Arizona1
Explorer
Explorer
NewsW wrote:
stsmark wrote:
alboy wrote:
So after all this speculating does anyone really have Real Facts that show it is a major problem with the new 2011 plus ford 6.7 diesels???


Frankly not that I have seen, warranty questions aside I think the actual failure rate is what would be considered normal attrition for the amount of units in service in regards to the 6.7.



"Normal" attrition is one thing.


"Normal" attrition not covered by warranty is another thing.

X2
Depending on batch, there is a confirmed set of cases where an entire batch had failure rates in the double digit range.

If that is normal, I hate to think whether it applies to all vehicles.

Airstreamer67
Explorer
Explorer
I wouldn't trade in my Chevy C30 with its flameous side-saddle gas tanks for that exploding Pinto. Nosir. Noway.

NinerBikes
Explorer
Explorer
dougford wrote:
1jeep wrote:
Too bad i traded in one of those horrible 6.4 diesels that had 100k miles with zero issues for this horrible 6.7!

Quick someone come take this thing off my hands before the fuel pump stops working!!


I'll give you 50 bucks for the 6.7. I'm tired of my 6.4, because at 30K miles, Ford contacted me and said I HAD to bring it so they could put new tires on at NO charge, because there had been reports of uneven tread wear on the Continentals when not properly inflated. Now I have to drive another 30K miles before I get to replace them myself...geesh...at this rate I won't get to shell out 700-800 bucks for another four years.


I wish Ford would have put new tires instead of the on our 1996 Ford Explorer Eddie Bauer AWD with V8 before it rolled and got totaled. People got killed in that one fiasco of Ford suggesting running passenger air pressures in tires built for truck chassis and truck tire pressures, despite Firestone's warnings. Want to buy my Pinto, complete with exploding gas tank, too?