Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NewsW]

An interesting post:

From VW TDI wrote:
I was at local car meet this week and we had a new member come by because he moved in town recently and he is the TDI specialist now as one of the local VW dealerships. I was talking to him about the HPFP issue and he brought up that all cars that threw check engine light or stalled prior to the hpfp failing showed mbar difference between requested and actual pressure over (I THINK HE SAID) 150mbar. He was telling me that when he went to a class over the HPFP stuff a few months ago they mentioned that they are working on an check engine situation that would throw code when the pressure of fuel pressure showed degration of the injection pump within a certain tolerence and make the car undriable. COMPLETE LIMP MODE... as right now if the car throws code for crazy fluctuations in fuel pressure now you can still drive the car but the glow plug light will just pulse...

He said all vehicles that they seen 150mbar+ difference that they swapped HPFP under warranty never passed metal through the entire fuel system ruining it. He was saying if an gauge company was able to make an gague that displayed actual and requested fuel pressure difference it would be vital gauge. He said the pumps that were on there way out struggled to even make reuested pressure at idle yet alone any other rpm... just food for thought...

If anyone is good with electronics could make a simple display with a buzzer possibly to achive this may be able to save people thousands of dollars.

Original Post



Now it is pretty plausible that at the onset of failure the pump will begin to lose pressure or have pressure fluctuations which are measureable.

That can warn of a failure --- if somehow detected and understood --- and cause the vehicle to go into limp / shut down and repaired before metal particles destroy the injectors etc.

Another interesting day in damage control.... after the problem began.

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

Toyota /Nippondenso's approach to HPFP pump design.

The Nippon Denso approach can do much less volume, harder to add capacity vs. the CP4 (which can just add cylinders.

http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/dem/crs/supply_pump.html

Much more expensive to manufacture.

Good only to 1,800 bar (a lot less for the higher volume models).

But it is much easier to design hydrodynamically.

Would like to see what coatings it has.


How is it lubricated? Is it fuel in the whole thing, or is it lubricating oil on the outside loop? The photo suggest it is fuel lubricated.


Note it is paired with solenoid injectors that are probably much slower than the piezo electrics:

http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/dem/crs/solenoid_injector.html

NewsK, make note of the icon that shows Earth with a link of chain, click on it, and fill in the field with copy and paste to get your links to work.

NipponDenso Solenoid Injectors.

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:

Toyota /Nippondenso's approach to HPFP pump design.

The Nippon Denso approach can do much less volume, harder to add capacity vs. the CP4 (which can just add cylinders.

http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/dem/crs/supply_pump.html

Much more expensive to manufacture.

Good only to 1,800 bar (a lot less for the higher volume models).

But it is much easier to design hydrodynamically.

Would like to see what coatings it has.


How is it lubricated? Is it fuel in the whole thing, or is it lubricating oil on the outside loop? The photo suggest it is fuel lubricated.


Note it is paired with solenoid injectors that are probably much slower than the piezo electrics:

http://www.globaldensoproducts.com/em/dem/crs/solenoid_injector.html

[NinerBikes]

BenK wrote:
If you get another chance to see the parts, could you take some pictures?

Am mainly interested in the pump innards and on that, the piston bottom/cam follower/cam face.

Is this one with the DLC only on one side? Anyone know if cam face or follower?

Can someone post a cross section of this pump? IIRC, there is a roller in the
cam follower, or am I mixing it up with something else?

Such a low miles and hours makes your components extremely valuable for diagnostics/forensics

Now that there is more info, albeit still a small sample size, am now convinced
it is inside the pump cam cavity.

What mechanism(s) of failure is/are still up in the air for me

Trail telltales for me are: The addition of DLC to both surfaces, the
change to only one sided DLC, the ever constant H2O warnings or that
they look for that first (is that just a ploy, or real), that this
is across many badges and engine sizes.

Also, if you can either scan or type in the work order info. *ALL* of
the parts listed might be telling. So will be EACH task. Maybe the
order/sequence important

Will they give you the parts? If so, are you into photography? If not
would you send me the part(s) and I'll take some high res close-ups
and post for forum discussion.

Did that for the GMT800 receiver where one forum member had it actually
break off. Most thought pieces were gone, but after taking a few
hundred high res pictures, was able to put it back together and
actually sequence the stages during the failure that eventually
lead to the part tearing off. Only had the receiver pin box and
only images of the receiver cross tube 'hole' vacated by his pin
box, but it all went back together visually after taking closeups
of mating separation edges (bent & mangled at that)

video of Bosch HP4 series pump


Toyota /Nippondenso's approach to HPFP pump design.

[NewsW]

LastOfTheBohicans wrote:
I wanted to post a quick update.

I have the work order from the dealership regarding the repairs. It lists the part numbers (Ford) and all the work steps.

I was able to find out that the pump was from Germany and the tech said that it was the Bosch 4000 model. I don't know if this helps you but like I indicated I will post the Ford part numbers.

When you ask?

When I get the truck back as they still haven't fixed the P20BA Reducdant Heater issue that I brough to their attention 2 weeks ago! Sorry, blood pressure spiked there for a second.

That is the original model (or a variant that had a mild tweak) and not the major reworked Czech model.

As for the reductant heater... tell them to put in a new tank / heater / sensor combo.

[BenK]

If you get another chance to see the parts, could you take some pictures?

Am mainly interested in the pump innards and on that, the piston bottom/cam follower/cam face.

Is this one with the DLC only on one side? Anyone know if cam face or follower?

Can someone post a cross section of this pump? IIRC, there is a roller in the
cam follower, or am I mixing it up with something else?

Such a low miles and hours makes your components extremely valuable for diagnostics/forensics

Now that there is more info, albeit still a small sample size, am now convinced
it is inside the pump cam cavity.

What mechanism(s) of failure is/are still up in the air for me

Trail telltales for me are: The addition of DLC to both surfaces, the
change to only one sided DLC, the ever constant H2O warnings or that
they look for that first (is that just a ploy, or real), that this
is across many badges and engine sizes.

Also, if you can either scan or type in the work order info. *ALL* of
the parts listed might be telling. So will be EACH task. Maybe the
order/sequence important

Will they give you the parts? If so, are you into photography? If not
would you send me the part(s) and I'll take some high res close-ups
and post for forum discussion.

Did that for the GMT800 receiver where one forum member had it actually
break off. Most thought pieces were gone, but after taking a few
hundred high res pictures, was able to put it back together and
actually sequence the stages during the failure that eventually
lead to the part tearing off. Only had the receiver pin box and
only images of the receiver cross tube 'hole' vacated by his pin
box, but it all went back together visually after taking closeups
of mating separation edges (bent & mangled at that)

[LastOfTheBohica]

I wanted to post a quick update.

I have the work order from the dealership regarding the repairs. It lists the part numbers (Ford) and all the work steps.

I was able to find out that the pump was from Germany and the tech said that it was the Bosch 4000 model. I don't know if this helps you but like I indicated I will post the Ford part numbers.

When you ask?

When I get the truck back as they still haven't fixed the P20BA Reducdant Heater issue that I brough to their attention 2 weeks ago! Sorry, blood pressure spiked there for a second.

[Jarlaxle]

Gas power looks better and better by the day...

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:

NinerBikes wrote:

Looks like they are calling it the new HPFP CPN5 series and it's got a very, very long commercial application life rating... that's gonna be expensive....

What bothers me is the CP4 appear here to stay for a while.

There is no major redesign beyond what they already did.

Look at the size of the medium-heavy duty version.

I wonder if it is oil lubricated.


The gossip in the trade is the piezo injectors are too expensive and the next move will be to go back to HEUI.

Ford may go back to HEUI, VW is more than likely to go to 2nd or 3rd generation Solenoid injectors in lieu of Piezo. When run with 1800 bar pressure and Nox treatment via DEF, so far, the reliablity has been good in 1st generation 2012 and 2013 Passat's, quite low failure rates so far, at least showing up on the internet.

[NewsW]

NinerBikes wrote:

Looks like they are calling it the new HPFP CPN5 series and it's got a very, very long commercial application life rating... that's gonna be expensive....

What bothers me is the CP4 appear here to stay for a while.

There is no major redesign beyond what they already did.

Look at the size of the medium-heavy duty version.

I wonder if it is oil lubricated.


The gossip in the trade is the piezo injectors are too expensive and the next move will be to go back to HEUI.

[NinerBikes]

NewsW wrote:
Have a latest look at the CP4.

It is now got a 2,500bar variant.

http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2012/08bosch.php


Plus, have a look at the larger cousin.

http://www.bosch-kraftfahrzeugtechnik.de/media/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/en_3/05_DS_Sheet...


Note the claim for life in the above...

Looks like they are calling it the new HPFP CPN5 series and it's got a very, very long commercial application life rating... that's gonna be expensive....

[NewsW]

Have a latest look at the CP4.

It is now got a 2,500bar variant.

http://www.dieselnet.com/news/2012/08bosch.php


Plus, have a look at the larger cousin.

http://www.bosch-kraftfahrzeugtechnik.de/media/db_application/downloads/pdf/antrieb/en_3/05_DS_Sheet...


Note the claim for life in the above...

[NewsW]

Contacts in the refining business tells me that they prefer (where possible) to pay for biodiesel credits from people who are making the stuff and selling it as B100 or >B20.

That way, they can use the dino oil made diesel, which is cheaper than biodiesel in many parts of the US, and cause them no / few problems.

Unfortunately, the market got shut down after massive fraud was discovered... probably leading to more biodiesel being blended this year due to the absence of available credits for sale:

EPA has declared invalid 140 million RINs representing about 930,000 gallons of biodiesel. Oil companies use the credits to demonstrate compliance with the Renewable Fuel Standard, which requires them to blend a certain amount of ethanol, biodiesel and advanced biofuels into US motor fuel supplies every year.

http://www.platts.com/RSSFeedDetailedNews/RSSFeed/Oil/6563368

[BenK]

NinerBikes wrote:

BenK wrote:
Yes, and wonder out loud what the 'spot' temperature is at the cam/follower
surface?

Betcha it is way up there...

All that is missing are trace amounts of sulfur, along with free O2's. The
PSI's & temps can make some very nasty acids...

All being churned by the cam and follower and another betcha that there is
electrical current running amok between parts inside the cavity

Take a refresher course on how biodiesel is chemically made... methoxide, sodium or potassium hydroxide in the form of lye and methanol being blended, to strp the glycerine backbone/fatty acids off the vegetable oil, to be replaced with methanol alcohol. What acts as the catalyst for this chemical reaction? What would be the residuals left in biodiesel? What happens when you wash the fuel with water to remove the excess residual methanol? What happens when the fuel is improperly dried completely, which takes a lot of heating to drive the moisture out, making it cost ineffective? :S Is not methanol a free source of oxygen in your fuel? What about residual catalyst left in your biodiesel... what kind of catalyst is it inside your high pressure fuel pump for other undesireable chemical reactions taking place? I am asking, I don't know the answers, nor am I implying that there is a good answer.

Ditto and more rhetorical than anything else...won't crack the books
just yet, but very interested in this topic. As with you, do know
that they created a witch's brew scenario with that pump cam cavity
and choice of lube

Yet another: "goes back to using diesel as a lube such a poor choice"
and "that cam cavity is too small and the flow of lube is not good" and
"in trying to make the form factor small, they have limited their
options"

Back to the current OP's problems...I'd consider a wonderful opportunity
if I was in the OEM engineering group. I'd 'buy' that vehicle, not
let the dealer touch it and bring my team out there to tear it down
to the last nut and bolt, all the while checking everything during
the dis-assembly.

Dis-assembly only after running tons of diagnostics on it first.

[NinerBikes]

BenK wrote:
Yes, and wonder out loud what the 'spot' temperature is at the cam/follower
surface?

Betcha it is way up there...

All that is missing are trace amounts of sulfur, along with free O2's. The
PSI's & temps can make some very nasty acids...

All being churned by the cam and follower and another betcha that there is
electrical current running amok between parts inside the cavity

Take a refresher course on how biodiesel is chemically made... methoxide, sodium or potassium hydroxide in the form of lye and methanol being blended, to strp the glycerine backbone/fatty acids off the vegetable oil, to be replaced with methanol alcohol. What acts as the catalyst for this chemical reaction? What would be the residuals left in biodiesel? What happens when you wash the fuel with water to remove the excess residual methanol? What happens when the fuel is improperly dried completely, which takes a lot of heating to drive the moisture out, making it cost ineffective? :S Is not methanol a free source of oxygen in your fuel? What about residual catalyst left in your biodiesel... what kind of catalyst is it inside your high pressure fuel pump for other undesireable chemical reactions taking place? I am asking, I don't know the answers, nor am I implying that there is a good answer.