Ford's answers to the NHTSA 6.7 Investigation

[ricatic]

There was a request for a link to Ford's answer's to the NHTSA investigation posted on a previous thread, since closed. Here is the link:

Ford's NHTSA Answers to the 6.7 investigation

This PDF is over 20 pages long. There are some interesting statements contained in the documents. My favorite is the one where Ford says they buy the pump from Bosch as a "black box" and do no testing of the component. It is closely followed by the tantamount admission that the pump will not provide a long service life when exposed to the poor lubricity fuel found in the US. You will have to do the math using the sales versus failure tables for the US and Canadian trucks. Eye opening difference to say the least...

Regards

[NewsW]

Lets think chemistry for a bit... I am not a chemist, but here is what comes to mind:

2 Fe2O3 + 3 C ? 4 Fe + 3 CO2

exothermic...



Or:


3 Fe2O3 + H2 ? 2 Fe3O4 + H2O

Fe3O4 is an abrasive.

Mohs Hardness @20°C 5.5 to 6.5

Hmmmm...

Slice right through aluminum at Moh 2.5-3 at 20C

[BenK]

Agree, but again why does the cam/follower/etc become an issue, as they are in
the upstream (atmosphere, or low pressure) of the higher pressures?

Again, we need to know the makeup of the debris from failed systems.

Betcha cam/follower/piston material and of that, DLC...

Agree that bio-diesel is another issue and will have their own problems
at these pressures, but the failures to date seem to involve the cam
cavity components (debris)

Edit...hey, maybe two 'main' problems that has Bosch looking at just
one...that then masks the real 'first' in a sequence of failure...

I still think diesel as a lubricant is insane for this application...was
going to say stupid, but Marty might slap me for that... :B

[NewsW]

Water was not a problem until we saw the higher pressures.

All of a sudden, we got water making its way into the system, forming rust particle that are then all subject to 2,000 bar, possibly making the mixture break down again and become reactive.

It may not be water per se that is the problem, but the reactive byproducts, or in the case of the photo on dieselsite's thread, metabolites from biofuel that have degraded.

We are really heading into unknown territory with the high pressures and biofuels all at once.

[BenK]

Rick's current/new thread should be here and it's link http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/26558921.cfm

Because I think it is addressing H2O out of context, or am off base...

Must ask some questions of you folks

What does H2O mess up in the diesel injection system? I know enough about diesel
from before this current Bosch system. Knew that H2O was not good for the
parts in the injection system because they were not plated with corrosion protection.
That the injectors ate it as does or would my GMT400 7.4L's injection system
if H2O or enough H2O got into my gasoline system

Known issue with the Bosch pump, but am after a divide and conquer position

Does anyone know if the injectors or anything down stream from the HPFP fails
due to H2O? or should say fail catastrophically as noted in this discussion?

Goes back to the bad decision by Bosch to use diesel as the lubrication for
their cam/follower/etc.

That the mechanical injection system of several folks in my city (many MB's and one
Volvo) has no problems with Bio-Diesel. They have been running that stuff for
years and know so because there was a huge bugaboo about a family run business
asking for a permit for bio-diesel on their property (used to be and still is
a mechanic's garage.

I still think that addressing H2O is only a band-aide...the root cause is diesel
as a lubricant and the pump cam/follower/etc is also a poor design by not
capturing the piston to the follower

To address that root cause is to remove diesel as the lubricant and re-plumb
pressurized engine oil as a replacement for the cam/follower/etc lubricant.

Then re-plumb the diesel to the HPFP's fuel intake to by-pass the cam cavity.

If H2O is the true problem, then the system should continue to have these types
of failures

If diesel as a lubricant, then the pressurized engine oil should solve or eliminate
these failures...should qualify that, as that is to assume that the cam/follower
is acceptable in design for the PSI's or BAR's involved

What am I missing and am off base here?

[NewsW]

If you have energy stock, be sure you watch the point and figure chart and unload it before the next downturn.

I am seeing early signs of a downturn right now.

[NinerBikes]

Anything to keep the supply short and the price up on diesel fuel. I'm sitting here in Kansas City, MO, and diesel is as much here as back home in Los Angeles. :m , which hurts when going through it trailering with my V6 Touareg with a head wind going west and a measly 13 MPG as a result. Glad I have plenty on energy stock in my portfolio.

[NewsW]

TugCE wrote:

NewsW wrote:
With the price of regular diesel plunging and likely to be stable for decades, who needs it?

I'm not sure where you live but the price of Diesel is going up not plunging as you say.

Normal seasonal uptick in fuel oil price.

The trend line, as seen here, is down:

Fuel oil price.

The strong uptick in fuel oil prices in November just didn't happen.

Meanwhile, cheap crude is flooding the midwest.

You are not seeing the discount because refiners are making good money shipping finished product (diesel) to Europe, playing the spread between Brent and West Texas Intermediate.

If the Iranian embargo is not there, Brent price would have equalized with West Texas by now.

[TugCE]

NewsW wrote:
With the price of regular diesel plunging and likely to be stable for decades, who needs it?

I'm not sure where you live but the price of Diesel is going up not plunging as you say.

[NewsW]

The elephant in the room is biofuels, and the widespread availability of biofuels that are not to spec or above the maximum level approved.

Biofuels is a highly perishable product that do not store well, and is easily contaminated if it is made to spec to begin with.

Until very recently, there were hardly any standards and auditing of biofuel makers, and no doubt, during the great boom that ended in 2008, tons of junk were made and flogged.

The stuff may be good in laboratory conditions, but in the real world, biofuels have too many pathways to screw up --- and no doubt it did plenty of that.

But the lobby of subsidized farmers making the stuff is well organized, shrill, and they got their hands into federal and state and local gov. pockets picking them clean of subsidies and having their stuff mandated.

With the price of regular diesel plunging and likely to be stable for decades, who needs it?

But try to get the biofuel mandates out now that it is in.

[BenK]

TriumphGuy wrote:
snip...

I won't pretend to know all that I should to delve into this but...

Do you think going to DLC on one side just was another in a long line of cost reduction moves?

Don't know the sequence, but IIRC, the the DLC was added to both surfaces

Then they removed it from one surface

Would you expect if both were not coated at all there would be improved film strength (such that we'd see longer pump life)? Or would it really matter that much since we're talking about ULSD?

Diesel is a fuel that has some lubrication properties. The only other
application that I know of that uses fuel as a lube is in a 2 cycle ICE

Strange for me to look at that cam and follower, knowing that diesel fuel is flowing in there while I'm accustomed to seeing something more viscous (i.e. engine oil) in that sort of mechanism. But I confess I don't look at pump innards every day.

I'm left wondering if there are other similar applications of cam/followers that have been successful without (what I'd think of as) adequate lubrication...

Am sure there are, but to keep it in context, the PSI on the mating
surfaces must the the same. Ditto surface foot per minute, etc

Anyone know of other Bosch applications of DLC?

All we can do is to make educated guesses based on information from
our forum members

Here are some from memory

• OEMs have replaced the whole injector system, why?
• What is in the debris..DLC?
• Why did they remove DLC from one surface...is that the surface that degraded in 'most' of the failures
• H2O...catalyst to cavitation?
• Piston not captured to follower...hammering of the piston bottom to follower common
• ???

[TriumphGuy]

BenK wrote:
...
Like why did they plug in DLC on both mating surfaces, to then only
plate one surface? Sends a message that their focus is in that spot/area

On DLC, it is NOT a good candidate for lubrication, as diamond is both
the best thermal conductor known to mankind and the best non-stick surface
material known to mankind...lube film strength anyone? On that, diesel
is NOT a good lube to begin with, so using it on the best non-stick
material surface known to mankind is almost an oxymoron

Stay in that rat-hole of DLC and noodle why did they go to this exotic
material that is very expensive (includes secondary and most likely
tertiary processing...maybe more). Why? What were they trying to
solve with that band-aide?

Then why did they remove the coating from one of the mating surfaces?
On that, which one is no longer coated? The cam surface or the follower?

I won't pretend to know all that I should to delve into this but...

Do you think going to DLC on one side just was another in a long line of cost reduction moves?

Would you expect if both were not coated at all there would be improved film strength (such that we'd see longer pump life)? Or would it really matter that much since we're talking about ULSD?

Strange for me to look at that cam and follower, knowing that diesel fuel is flowing in there while I'm accustomed to seeing something more viscous (i.e. engine oil) in that sort of mechanism. But I confess I don't look at pump innards every day.

I'm left wondering if there are other similar applications of cam/followers that have been successful without (what I'd think of as) adequate lubrication...

Anyone know of other Bosch applications of DLC?

[BenK]

Yes, like the gear pump and would think a gear pump all together would
be a good option, but need to know more of the requirements/spec's

Back to the issues listed previously and that us outsiders can only
make an educated guess via the dead bodies out there

But from the outside viewing those dead bodies can gain a bit of vision
into their thought processes.

Like why did they plug in DLC on both mating surfaces, to then only
plate one surface? Sends a message that their focus is in that spot/area

On DLC, it is NOT a good candidate for lubrication, as diamond is both
the best thermal conductor known to mankind and the best non-stick surface
material known to mankind...lube film strength anyone? On that, diesel
is NOT a good lube to begin with, so using it on the best non-stick
material surface known to mankind is almost an oxymoron

Stay in that rat-hole of DLC and noodle why did they go to this exotic
material that is very expensive (includes secondary and most likely
tertiary processing...maybe more). Why? What were they trying to
solve with that band-aide?

Then why did they remove the coating from one of the mating surfaces?
On that, which one is no longer coated? The cam surface or the follower?

Betcha lots of DLC particles are in the debris...why? and that goes
back to why they added there in the first place

We can see where they are focusing on the rev's of the pump. Again,
betcha it is in the cam cavity and specifically the cam/follower
interface. Another betcha is the piston to follower and the hammering
that is consistent with all the reports to date.

OBTW, AQL (allowable quality level...AKA rejects or failures) normally
should be in the 0.XX% to 0.0X% range. Anything higher is not acceptable to
my standards and most all ISO9000 compliant firms.

Wish and/or wonder if Bosch has plumbed pressurized engine oil into
the cam cavity and re-routed diesel out of that cavity and directly
from the tank/filter(s) to the piston cylinder chamber to bypass the
cam cavity.

Then test the daylights out of it, including bio-diesel & lots of H2O

Just a theory...

[TriumphGuy]

NinerBikes wrote:


That there are still failures coming in on the Czech built pumps still points to defective design if you ask me. That I am sitting on a 100,000 mile warranty on my 2012 Touareg TDI design for the power train says that I probably won't be keeping that Touareg much past 100,000 miles, not with a potential $16,000 repair on my nickle if the HPFP goes south.

Bosch needs to string some managers and some board of directors strung up and issued some pink slips.

So it looks like the CP4 change hasn't changed enough. I would be thinking the same thing if I had the 'reg as well.

If Ford were replacing pumps "without hassle" and "under warranty" maybe I'd think about an ESP to 200k on a used truck. But they're not. And on top of that you'd have a failure and downtime.

So I've been looking into 2010+ Rams. Not the same pump, possibly other issues to be concerned about but hopefully not to the same magnitude.

Did I read in this thread somewhere that there were some recorded CP3 failures?

BenK wrote:

Agree, they still haven't found and/or are not addressing the root
cause...and...think, always thought, a very, very poor design that
speaks volumes of management compromises on $$$$$

#1, poor choice to use diesel as the lube
#2, poor cam/crank cavity design
#3, poor piston to crank/cam design and should be positively captured
#4, poor cavity/routing/valving/etc that creates cavitation potentials

Finally, VERY poor design team/management. Wonder what their background was
Ditto for their management and their decisions to date

PS...no longer MTB seriously...not going to full suspension just yet.
My Trek 8K (1996 hard tail) is my speed these days and more road cyclist
now (Madone 6.5 and an ~25yr old Trek 1K)

Wow more bike riders! We just keep popping up! Thank you for sharing those pics. Truth be told I've been on the road bike more because we moved further away from my "home" trails a few years ago. Still get out there from time to time but the miles are racking up on the skinny tired bike.

Not to detract at all from the brain power looking at this situation, but interesting that looking from the outside in it's been possible to point out some serious issues...

Ben do I remember correctly that you liked the fact that the CP3 has a gear drive before the piston side?

[TriumphGuy]

RedRocket204 wrote:
OT

TriumphGuy wrote:
(BTW you sound like a mtb riding, trailer pulling diesel fan, thought I was alone...)

Nope. You are not alone. Maybe I should change my screen name to YetiBikes 😉

Sweet, nice to know there's more of out there. 🙂

[BenK]

NinerBikes wrote:
snip....

That there are still failures coming in on the Czech built pumps still points to defective design if you ask me. That I am sitting on a 100,000 mile warranty on my 2012 Touareg TDI design for the power train says that I probably won't be keeping that Touareg much past 100,000 miles, not with a potential $16,000 repair on my nickle if the HPFP goes south.

Bosch needs to string some managers and some board of directors strung up and issued some pink slips.

Agree, they still haven't found and/or are not addressing the root
cause...and...think, always thought, a very, very poor design that
speaks volumes of management compromises on $$$$$

#1, poor choice to use diesel as the lube
#2, poor cam/crank cavity design
#3, poor piston to crank/cam design and should be positively captured
#4, poor cavity/routing/valving/etc that creates cavitation potentials

Finally, VERY poor design team/management. Wonder what their background was
Ditto for their management and their decisions to date

PS...no longer MTB seriously...not going to full suspension just yet.
My Trek 8K (1996 hard tail) is my speed these days and more road cyclist
now (Madone 6.5 and an ~25yr old Trek 1K)

With 15 year old out on a local hill a few months ago...had to walk
up most of those trails...knew extreme incline when the testosterone
fueled teen would also walk...just to keep me company he says... 🙂


Took a jump a few years ago and snapped the Shimano bottom bracket
Fun landing to see the bicycle stop and me continue going down....
Just got reminded that some of the chain ring teeth are busted from
climbing n changing more than one gear...gotta rebuild the power train


Forensically see that it was cracked a long time before and that last
jump the final straw...


Miles of walking to nearest bicycle shop...closer than to the Suburban...


Fav family ride (ladies and kids) up at the local watershed (SF)
and my Trek 8K before snapping that bottom bracket