8840 question

[MamaGoose]

We're just about to send them in for the first time. And I have a possibly silly question for those of you couples who are pros at doing these forms. Did you put both spouses' forms in the same envelope, or did you mail them in in separate envelopes? We're back in Canada, now. Good idea to send them by registered mail?

[toban]

There's also the 3 year test for Canadians.

Take Current years days

Take 1/3 of previous years days

Take 1/6th of next years days

If they add up to more than 182 days, Canadians are been required to fill out an 8840 form Closer Connection form.

Toban

[joebedford]

As I understand it, 182 days has nothing to do with when you qualify for taxation in the US of A. If you spend 183 or more days in US of A in a year, you must FILE, not necessarily pay tax. Similarly, you might have to pay tax under some circumstances if you spend 182 days or fewer.

It's apparent that there is a non-zero probability that a border agent with a bee in its bonnet about you will darn tootin' look at your online footprint.

[Community Alumni]

My comment about the IRS is relative to what congress is trying to do. The IRS do not want to go beyond 182 days prior to determining when you qualify for taxation.

Also I'm sure there are a whole lot IRS agents looking at my profile to see where I camp. :E I'm also sure they will be concerned with the approx 125 days we will spend in the U.S. this year. :S

[joebedford]

PackerBacker wrote:

toban wrote:
The US Immigration and the IRS ARE now talking to each other. Also as of June 2014, Canada Customs and the US Customs are also exchanging information on entry and departure dates etc.

Don't take this lightly like some people do.

Toban

I don't think they are talking the same language. Immigration would like to extend visits to 8 months within a calendar year but the IRS do not want to go beyond 182 days.

I don't think immigration cares one way or the other. Congress is trying to extend the snowbird "visa".

Don't understand your comment about IRS and 182 days. The IRS is quite happy to take taxes on your worldwide income if they think you're closer to USA than somewhere else regardless of the number days you're there.

Some people on this forum risk US taxes. For example, in one's profile: listing two residences in USA and only one in Canada.

[Community Alumni]

toban wrote:
The US Immigration and the IRS ARE now talking to each other. Also as of June 2014, Canada Customs and the US Customs are also exchanging information on entry and departure dates etc.

Don't take this lightly like some people do.

Toban

I don't think they are talking the same language. Immigration would like to extend visits to 8 months within a calendar year but the IRS do not want to go beyond 182 days.

[toban]

The US Immigration and the IRS ARE now talking to each other. Also as of June 2014, Canada Customs and the US Customs are also exchanging information on entry and departure dates etc.

Don't take this lightly like some people do.

Toban

[joebedford]

I put January 1 / no visa.

[oh_boy]

They don't care how many times you come and go. If the border guys, who have all your dates let you in your in. IRS is only concerned that you spend less than 182 days in the US to meet the Substantial Presence Test or they want some of your money. Taxes etc.

We have filed the 8840 for 10 years. I use the year (2014) as the last year. When I do 2015 it will be done and mailed from the US (in 2016 Feb.) so I will count 2015, 2014 and 2013 as the portions.
I also carry a spare copy (last year) with our passports as I was once asked by the border guard if I was aware of it.

I mail it in the US as it runs Jan 01/2013 to Dec 31/13 etc. Postage is 47c in the US vs international rates from Canada. I have never entered anything in the Visa section as I am a tourist. Visa types are for workers or those staying longer than 182 days. I also have never heard boo from them in 10 years.

Canada and US now have an agreement to track your time so do not over stay your time, as of July this year both sides will show your entry and exit date.
If you go over for even a day or an hour to pick up a parcel you have to count that as a day in the US.

[John___Angela]

MamaGoose wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

MamaGoose wrote:

MamaGoose wrote:
Sorry, I just realized I have another question. I had thought if we have no visa (which we don't), Line 1 could be left blank in its entirety. I just came across some info that looks like we would still put in the date we entered the U.S. Thing is, we entered three times during the last calendar year. What do you guys do? Leave it blank? Since you're probably there Jan 1, do you put that date? Or both Jan 1 and the fall date that you re-enter the U.S.?

Can anyone answer this (would sure appreciate it!), or is it something you're not comfortable getting into?

Oh, and we are hoping the 8 month rule comes in, but it wouldn't be any help unless the IRS gets on board with it as well.

Sorry can't help with the question as we haven't been in that situation of multiple entrys.

For the type of visa, technically Canadians are on what is called "an implied B2 visa" but we just write in snowbird visa.

Thanks, John and Angela. So you actually write in the words "snowbird visa"? 🙂

For your entries, I would imagine you are already there as of January 1, then you return to Canada in the spring, then you re-enter the U.S. in the fall. I saw someone else writing about this elsewhere online, which is what got me wondering. This person was wondering if they enter the date they had entered the previous fall (2013) or the January 1 date. The form does just cover the calender year of 2014. In our case, we actually had returned to Canada over Christmas-New Years in 2013 and we went back to the U.S. in January, 2014 for a few weeks. Then we left U.S. soil to go on a 2 week cruise and entered the U.S. again in February. Then we returned to Canada in the spring, then back to the U.S. in November. Originally I had thought we could just leave that entire line blank, so I'm glad I didn't go ahead and do that, anyway. I might just attach a note with the dates entered and number of days each time. Or do they just want the first day you ever entered the U.S. in 2014.

(Am I over thinking this? LOL!)

Yep, we just write it in as "Snowbird Visa" I don't think you are over thinking it. You are just trying to be thorough. Nothing wrong with sending a little note. There is a person reading it at the other end.

[MamaGoose]

John & Angela wrote:

MamaGoose wrote:

MamaGoose wrote:
Sorry, I just realized I have another question. I had thought if we have no visa (which we don't), Line 1 could be left blank in its entirety. I just came across some info that looks like we would still put in the date we entered the U.S. Thing is, we entered three times during the last calendar year. What do you guys do? Leave it blank? Since you're probably there Jan 1, do you put that date? Or both Jan 1 and the fall date that you re-enter the U.S.?

Can anyone answer this (would sure appreciate it!), or is it something you're not comfortable getting into?

Oh, and we are hoping the 8 month rule comes in, but it wouldn't be any help unless the IRS gets on board with it as well.

Sorry can't help with the question as we haven't been in that situation of multiple entrys.

For the type of visa, technically Canadians are on what is called "an implied B2 visa" but we just write in snowbird visa.

Thanks, John and Angela. So you actually write in the words "snowbird visa"? 🙂

For your entries, I would imagine you are already there as of January 1, then you return to Canada in the spring, then you re-enter the U.S. in the fall. I saw someone else writing about this elsewhere online, which is what got me wondering. This person was wondering if they enter the date they had entered the previous fall (2013) or the January 1 date. The form does just cover the calender year of 2014. In our case, we actually had returned to Canada over Christmas-New Years in 2013 and we went back to the U.S. in January, 2014 for a few weeks. Then we left U.S. soil to go on a 2 week cruise and entered the U.S. again in February. Then we returned to Canada in the spring, then back to the U.S. in November. Originally I had thought we could just leave that entire line blank, so I'm glad I didn't go ahead and do that, anyway. I might just attach a note with the dates entered and number of days each time. Or do they just want the first day you ever entered the U.S. in 2014.

(Am I over thinking this? LOL!)

[John___Angela]

MamaGoose wrote:

MamaGoose wrote:
Sorry, I just realized I have another question. I had thought if we have no visa (which we don't), Line 1 could be left blank in its entirety. I just came across some info that looks like we would still put in the date we entered the U.S. Thing is, we entered three times during the last calendar year. What do you guys do? Leave it blank? Since you're probably there Jan 1, do you put that date? Or both Jan 1 and the fall date that you re-enter the U.S.?

Can anyone answer this (would sure appreciate it!), or is it something you're not comfortable getting into?

Oh, and we are hoping the 8 month rule comes in, but it wouldn't be any help unless the IRS gets on board with it as well.

Sorry can't help with the question as we haven't been in that situation of multiple entrys.

For the type of visa, technically Canadians are on what is called "an implied B2 visa" but we just write in snowbird visa.

[MamaGoose]

MamaGoose wrote:
Sorry, I just realized I have another question. I had thought if we have no visa (which we don't), Line 1 could be left blank in its entirety. I just came across some info that looks like we would still put in the date we entered the U.S. Thing is, we entered three times during the last calendar year. What do you guys do? Leave it blank? Since you're probably there Jan 1, do you put that date? Or both Jan 1 and the fall date that you re-enter the U.S.?

Can anyone answer this (would sure appreciate it!), or is it something you're not comfortable getting into?

Oh, and we are hoping the 8 month rule comes in, but it wouldn't be any help unless the IRS gets on board with it as well.

[John___Angela]

PackerBacker wrote:

John & Angela wrote:

toban wrote:
They don't respond or confirm receipt. I'd love to see their screen when we go through US Customs to see if the forms have been registered on our file. I would hope they would be.

Toban

I doubt it. I don't think the immigration guys talk to the IRS guys. Completely different set of rules and limits.

Yeah correct. On a side note, the immigration arm is actually looking at extending the right to visit up to 8 months.

Yepir. I would think it will happen in the next regime, but the question remains will the IRS still be happy with the declaration on the 8840 as having closer ties to Canada. Not an issue for us as we are not usually in the US for more than 4 or sometimes 5 months at a shot but I suspect those buying houses there will be staying tuned to see how the US deals with them. Once we hit 60 we will probably be snowbirding in other countries (Spain, Italy, Greece, Ecuador, Chile, Mexico etc) and it seems every country has challenges and loopholes to jump through. Yay. 🙂

[Community Alumni]

John & Angela wrote:

toban wrote:
They don't respond or confirm receipt. I'd love to see their screen when we go through US Customs to see if the forms have been registered on our file. I would hope they would be.

Toban

I doubt it. I don't think the immigration guys talk to the IRS guys. Completely different set of rules and limits.

Yeah correct. On a side note, the immigration arm is actually looking at extending the right to visit up to 8 months.