Empty parks with no open sites.

dedmiston wrote:

ferndaleflyer wrote:
And no obligation to the people who in good faith paid for, and gave their money, for a spot that you can then give to someone else? This idea would make me feel like a common thief. This must be designed for those that routinely show up without a reservation. I am done here as since in all these years of camping I have NEVER experienced this situation. Everyone be safe and have fun.

I think "good faith" doesn't always apply to this. I think a significant percentage of the vacancies are from people trying to game the system.

Exactly! In my experience, most people who honestly had an emergency come up simply call the park and let them know they will be a day late. And the parks are happy to accommodate them.

It's the folks who are trying to play the system that this is intended to stop.

The folks who book a full 14 days just to nab the holiday weekend before everyone else - leaving the campsite empty for 11 of those 14 days.

The folks who book four different sites for the same timeframe so they can "pick" the best one when they arrive, leaving the other campsites empty.

And so on.

Here is the no show policy on the recreation.gov website:


No-Shows
A no-show customer is one who does not arrive at a campground and does not cancel the reservation by check-out time on the day after the scheduled arrival date (or for day-use facilities, by check-in time the day of arrival).

No-show customers are only recorded at staffed facilities. At most remote facilities, all customers are noted as automatically checked-in on the date of arrival.

It is recommended that staffed facilities hold a campsite until check-out time on the day following the arrival date.

It is recommended that staffed facilities hold group day-use facilities until check-in time on the arrival date.

There is no change fee if a customer extends or shortens a reservation if the change includes dates from the original reservation. If they choose to depart early, they may forfeit some or all of the recreation fees.

There is no change fee if the customer changes campsites that are the same price and on the same reservation dates in the same campground. If the campsite the customer is changing to has a price difference, the customer will be responsible for any additional fees or be provided with a refund, based on the price difference.

Where recorded, no-show customers are assessed a $20.00 no-show fee and forfeit the first night's recreation fee for a campsite or forfeit the entire day-use recreation fee for a day-use facility. We recommend customers contact the facility if they are en route to their reservation but cannot make it by the check-in date. In these cases, no refund will be issued, but the facility can ensure that a "no-show" fee is not assessed..

ferndaleflyer wrote:
And no obligation to the people who in good faith paid for, and gave their money, for a spot that you can then give to someone else? This idea would make me feel like a common thief. This must be designed for those that routinely show up without a reservation. I am done here as since in all these years of camping I have NEVER experienced this situation. Everyone be safe and have fun.

I think "good faith" doesn't always apply to this. I think a significant percentage of the vacancies are from people trying to game the system.

I think we have all experienced this situation when we see mutiple vacant sites on a busy weekend. In that case we are fortunate to have a site and witness the vacancies. The unfortunate ones are those who were not able to get a site because the campground was booked.
I imagine if you feel you have the right to no show then you have not experienced or witness the vacncies because you never made it to the CG to see your unused site:S

ferndaleflyer wrote:
And no obligation to the people who in good faith paid for, and gave their money, for a spot that you can then give to someone else? This idea would make me feel like a common thief. This must be designed for those that routinely show up without a reservation. I am done here as since in all these years of camping I have NEVER experienced this situation. Everyone be safe and have fun.

They have an obligation to provide a site if you show up on time

If you don't show up, you have violated the terms of the contract and there is no moral issue. Don't like it, don't make a reservation.

If you have never experienced the situation, you have never been a no-show for a campsite or hotel when they are at capacity. This isn't something new or shocking.

And no obligation to the people who in good faith paid for, and gave their money, for a spot that you can then give to someone else? This idea would make me feel like a common thief. This must be designed for those that routinely show up without a reservation. I am done here as since in all these years of camping I have NEVER experienced this situation. Everyone be safe and have fun.

ferndaleflyer wrote:
I don't do state parks and such but in the past I have rented out about everything to others and have rented about as much for my own use. And if this in fact goes on its just asking for trouble unless it is made very plain in the contract that you can keep my money or lease my spot to someone else just because I am not there. You have to reserve and pay a year in advance and then show up late to find someone else has your spot? Get real. They keep a weeks worth of money for a year and don't have a spot for you? It would take a fool to fall for that trap. Now if it is made plain in the contract that this goes on after you have to pay a year out, I wouldn't go near the place...I don't think I have ever been sent a contract when reserving a camp site. So much for reading the FINE print. Does this really go on?

This is common with many rental businesses. Don't show up for a hotel room and after a predetermined time, they can sell the room to someone else.

For the most part, they have gone to online reservation systems and make you check a box that you have read the rules, so no claiming you didn't get the contract terms.

Ultimately, they are renting sites in areas that are generally much nicer than most private parks at much cheaper than market rates, so people will continue to book under these terms and as you keep overlooking, the parks have an obligation to serve all the public.

Tvov wrote:
One way to help this would be to make reservations 100% prepay in advance, and cancellations require a 2 week notice - or you lose your prepayment.

There have been so many times where I read about people using "the system" to reserve and cancel at popular places in order to get what they want. Fort Wilderness is a prime example of this - or at least was 10 years ago, the last time we were there.

Hmmm... When I posted the above, I was thinking about when people book sites the moment they are able to for popular times, but then cancel when they actually figure out when they are going - and get a refund. That was common at Fort Wilderness, and it annoyed the heck out of me. People gaming the system to get prime campsites, while also getting all their money back when changing their reservations. If you reserve a site, you pay for it.

As to paying for a site and then not using it... that doesn't bother me. Same for wanting to reserve 2 or 3 (or more) sites but only "camp" on one to give yourself more room. As long as you are paying for the campsites.

So... happy camping!

It seems like everyone is upset because they can't get the site they wanted or the days they wanted. The truth is the campgrounds don't care.

Here in Ohio if you book a site you pay for it at the time of booking. If you don't show up - they don't care as they already got paid. It actually works out better in their favor as you are not using electric, water, sewer, facilities etc...

They closed the loophole of people reserving a site for a week only to then change their reservations and only take the weekend days. Now you can't modify your reservation, you can cancel it, but it cancels the entire reservation and then becomes available again to the general public and you can't book it again for like 15 minutes. So you might get it or someone else might have already booked it.

There are lots of reasons why a site might be booked but empty. Family emergencies come up, breakdowns, etc...

I would be totally pissed if I had a reservation but for some reason could not make it the first day due to some unforeseen circumstances and show up the following day only to see someone else on my site because it was rebooked.

IMO, the option of first come first serve sites is different than the no show problem. The federal forests out here offer some campgrounds that are only FCFS sites. The rest usually have a set number of campsites reserved as FCFS. At Lassen, Manzanita Lake campground is all reserved only. The other campgrounds are FCFS.

Regarding Colorado specifically, here's a different example.

CO State Parks are all reservation only. There no longer is walk up/first come first served sites. A favourite place of mine is the State Forest State Park, with 3 different campgrounds available. Most of the time, all 3 of them are full, there's rarely any empty sites.

That said, there's "overflow" camping at the Moose Vistor's Center in Gould. Folks that are waiting to see if something opens up in one of the 3 campgrounds. Problem is, since it's reservation only, you have to either go on line or call the reservation number. But there's no cell phone service there. Closest place for cell phone service is in Walden, 26 miles away. I don't know first hand if the Visitor's Center staff will allow folks to use a landline phone there at the center to call for a reservation. There is no cell service there.

There is one entry station for 2 of the campgrounds that is staffed, but with limited hours. The 3rd campground has an entry station but for the past 3 years it has not been staffed at all. The staffed entry station will tell folks that they have to make a reservation either on line or by phone call. So there's a Catch-22 here. I heard that conversation with someone ahead of me during a check in at one of the campgrounds.

A possible solution to this would be to go back to allowing some walk ins, after the passage of the check in time for the next day. Not perfect, but a solution.

My experience, however, at least with the Colorado State Parks is that there are rarely no show or empty sites. That cannot be said for Rocky Mountain National Park campgrounds and USFS campgrounds. I frequently see empty sites at both, particularly USFS where they still use the cards attached to a post at the campsite. Lots of reservations and no shows with some popular USFS campgrounds. One solution there is that all sites are first come/first served. No reservations at all. This is true for several campgrounds in the Poudre Canyon, as well as campgrounds in Wyoming between Centennial and Saratoga. To my knowledge, in that area, there's only one that allows reservations, all the others are first come.