Adding 110V outlets

[jamnw]

I am considering adding a couple outlets to my TT.
I plan to put two, one in kitchen, and one in bathroom. SWMBO is tired of waiting to dry hair, make coffee or toast. It never fails that someone will turn on the microwave at the same time.... Click, there goes the breaker!

I want to add a circuit outside the original wiring. Use a good extension cord plugged into 15amp in power ped to energize.

I'm not an electrician, but I am very comfortable working with electricity. Navy electronics!

I am not familiar with "electric code"
I would love some advice on how to properly install this.

What kind of connection/plug on the TT?

Plan to use ground fault outlets at both locations. Any other necessary precautions?

[n7bsn]

myredracer wrote:

n7bsn wrote:

You don't really want to put a 2nd GFCI on an existing one. You will run into false ground-trips.

Afraid I don't agree with this either (EE here too). GFCIs in series doesn't cause nuisance tripping. What happens is when there is a ground fault, you won't know which GFCI will trip, or they could both trip. Unless a person knows that there are GFCIs in series, they may not be able to find the GFCI that actually tripped, or if both tripped, they likely won't know to look for a 2nd GFCI. If you can find something from a wiring device manufacturer saying multiple GFCIs causes tripping, I'd like to see it. I've done a lot of googling and nothing says that it causes tripping. Some outdoor appliances (pressure washer,for ex.) have a GFCI built into the cord and they work fine when plugged into a GFCI recept.

I've had series connected GFCI's do false trips, which is why I stated that

[myredracer]

jamnw wrote:

I want to add a circuit outside the original wiring. Use a good extension cord plugged into 15amp in power ped to energize.

The first thing, and cheapest thing, is to improve you power management practices. Otherwise, what I would do is add a new power inlet on the side of your TT such as Marinco/Park Power makes. Keep in mind that a hair dryer can be 1500 watts (12.5 amps) and you can't run another appliance for very long without tripping a 20 amp breaker.

Pedestals often have a 20 amp T-slot receptacle on a GFCI. (Sometimes all you will get is a 30 amp recept. tho.) What I would do is install 15/20 amp T-slot receptacles with #12 gauge wiring inside your TT and a #12 ga. extension cord. Then I would install a new 20 amp recept. on the side of your TT for when there is no 20 amp recept. at a ped. and plug the 20 amp extension cord into this recept. You might consider a SPDT transfer switch but you'd need to ensure it's done to Code for safety reasons.

You might be able to run #14 ga. from the 1st to 2nd recept. and use a 15 amp recept. for the 2nd one, but I would check with the NEC or ask an inspector or electrician. I would not trust the GFCI in a pedestal and would make sure you use a GFCI in the bathroom. Plus you never know when you might be parked somewhere where there isn't a GFCI to plug into.

You can run wiring concealed in a TT. I've done enough to know it can be done, but it does take an effort. It may depend on your TT layout and construction details tho. You might be able to pick up the MW circuit behind the panel and extend new romex to the bathroom from there.

15/20 amp T-slot GFCI info.: Hubbell If opting to add to the panel, another choice would to be use a GFCI breaker but they tend to be expensive. If short on spare breaker space in the panel, you can replace existing breakers with "tandem" breakers that have 2 breakers in the space of a regular one.

Having said all the above blah, blah, what I would do is install the additional power inlet on the side of your TT and install a dedicated 15/20 amp T-slot GFCI recept. in a convenient location somewhere inside your TT. Maybe close to the bathroom for the hair dryer. Then you can leave the existing bathroom recept. alone. Unless you run another heavy appliance (toaster, coffee maker, etc.) at the same time, you probably will find the MW runs fine. I often run our toaster and coffee maker at the same time and have yet to trip a 30 amp breaker because they're not on long enough. Installed a power inlet and dedicated recept. in our first TT for times that we'd want to use an appliance (crock pot, rice cooker, griddle, etc.) in addition to anything else (on 30 amp service). Funny thing is, we never had an occasion to ever have to use it, but we never used our AC though.

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

The self contained "press fit" receptacales are used for one reason only. They are cheaper.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with that. One reason they are used in RVs is because the thickness of walls will not accommodate an outlet box and you can't attach an outlet box to a stud like in a house. SCDs are also used in in mobile homes. They are CSA or UL listed and approved by the NEC. As long as they are properly installed, there is absolutely nothing wrong with them and they are quite capable of drawing their rated current and are just as reliable as anything else. I can buy a residential outlet box and receptacle at less cost than an SCD anytime. If there have been issues with them, I'd like to see something from a Code committee or electrical safety authorities. SCDs can be improperly installed at the factory as I found out with our first TT, but that's not the receptacle's fault. If someone is concerned with them, you could pull each one out and make sure the wires are connected correctly.

n7bsn wrote:

You don't really want to put a 2nd GFCI on an existing one. You will run into false ground-trips.

Afraid I don't agree with this either (EE here too). GFCIs in series doesn't cause nuisance tripping. What happens is when there is a ground fault, you won't know which GFCI will trip, or they could both trip. Unless a person knows that there are GFCIs in series, they may not be able to find the GFCI that actually tripped, or if both tripped, they likely won't know to look for a 2nd GFCI. If you can find something from a wiring device manufacturer saying multiple GFCIs causes tripping, I'd like to see it. I've done a lot of googling and nothing says that it causes tripping. Some outdoor appliances (pressure washer,for ex.) have a GFCI built into the cord and they work fine when plugged into a GFCI recept.

[Blacklane]

The difference is that with breakers and lugs, the wire is inserted into a hole or channel, then compressed by a screw through the side.

Wrapping a wire around a screw can result in the wire motion loosening the screw.

In a similar light, they used to make replacement plugs, such as for lamps, that had the wire-around-the-screw, but those have been banned since the late 1980s for the same reason. Now replacement plugs have compression connections. Only permanent fixtures may have the wire-around-the-screw connections.

You may use standard receptacles in an RV, but you should choose ones with spring-loaded or compression terminals. They also need to be installed in electrical boxes, since they aren't self-contained.

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

Then why does the power distribution panel use circuit breakers with screws?

The self contained "press fit" receptacales are used for one reason only. They are cheaper.

I've replaced all but 3 of mine, because I use a lot of high wattage devices.

Blacklane wrote:
Also note that RVs use "Self Contained" receptacles with press-in wire connections. While some people feel they seem "cheap", in fact they are much more reliable in a moving, vibrating environment than standard receptacles. Actually, wrapping a wire around a screw is just about the worst kind of connection for vibrating environment. Note that you never see that in automotive wiring.

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Rather than adding more holes, I simply fished the wire to the existing shore power cord box. I used the best quality male plugs I could find on #10 wire and on #12 wire (so that I could easily tell the difference). I left about two feet that I can "draw out" of the shore power cord box.

I've already covered what I did on the inside. It is great to be able to switch back to the OEM wiring in about 20 seconds.

[BarneyS]

I added an extra plug receptical to my trailer last year. The device that I used was this one from West Marine.

With all the cool weather we had down in Florida, we needed a way to run our electric heater without going through the trailers electrical system. I put in a waterproof outside receptical and inside outlet in the side of our slide out. Now we can run the electric heater without worrying about tripping the trailers breaker.
Works great!
Barney





Quite simple mod.

1. I first determined where the studs were by tapping around on the outside. Then drilled a 2" hole ( I think that was the size) through the outside wall.

2.Cut an opening in the inside wall about 6 inches to the side of the outside hole for the inside plug outlet and box.

3.Snaked a 12/2 wire from outside over to inside hole.

4.Connected outside receptical to wire and mounted it on wall.

5.Connected inside receptical to wire and mounted it on the wall.

6.Checked wiring job with outlet checker - everything showed ok.

7.Plugged in the heater and it worked fine! 🙂
Barney

[n7bsn]

The bulk-head mounts like Carb-Cleaner showed came out of the Marine industry. They are very common for shore-power for pleasure-craft.
Locally I can get a much better price/availability on them from West Marine (or other boating places) then Camping World.

Ah Fire-Control ET, worked with one flavor, since so much of my work was with the MK46/MK48/MK50/MK54 torpedoes.
Also know a couple Missle-Men from Boomers.

And yes, the XO can be much more understanding then any DW

[jamnw]

Carb Cleaner wrote:
Put one of these on the outside of the camper. It's a male 110 plug that the end of an extension cord plugs into. From there, add a circuit breaker or fuse and run your #12 (20 Amp circuit) or #14 (15 Amp circuit) Romex wire, using a GFCI outlet for the first outlet in the circuit (protecting the other outlets down the line). I did this to my cargo trailer, but I omitted the breaker/fuse for simplicity, relying on the source breaker to trip if something's wrong. In 12 years, I haven't had an issue, but I don't run 1500 watt hairdryers in my trailer, either.
I've encountered a few campgrounds that do not have 20 or 15 amp service. Only 30 or 50 Amp. That's a bit of a snag for this plan. Adding a breaker to your existing panel is probably easiest, if there's space and capacity available. I'm not an electrician.
This is an example. I made zero effort to find the best deal:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B003ATXIBG

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for. I pictured that type plug but didn't know what call it.
Thanks

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Then why does the power distribution panel use circuit breakers with screws?

The self contained "press fit" receptacales are used for one reason only. They are cheaper.

I've replaced all but 3 of mine, because I use a lot of high wattage devices.

Blacklane wrote:
Also note that RVs use "Self Contained" receptacles with press-in wire connections. While some people feel they seem "cheap", in fact they are much more reliable in a moving, vibrating environment than standard receptacles. Actually, wrapping a wire around a screw is just about the worst kind of connection for vibrating environment. Note that you never see that in automotive wiring.

[Blacklane]

Also note that RVs use "Self Contained" receptacles with press-in wire connections. While some people feel they seem "cheap", in fact they are much more reliable in a moving, vibrating environment than standard receptacles. Actually, wrapping a wire around a screw is just about the worst kind of connection for vibrating environment. Note that you never see that in automotive wiring.

[jamnw]

n7bsn wrote:
Sounds like you are planning to add two circuits.

You do know you only have to have on (the first) GFCI in a circuit to protect the entire circuit, right? You connect the source to the "line" and the remainder of the outlets to the "load".

You don't really want to put a 2nd GFCI on an existing one. You will run into false ground-trips.

The biggest problem is getting inside the walls to run the wires. Unless you are going to surface mount your cables.

Also, your basic assumption if flawed. You are going to run a cord to the pedestal 15 amp, a lot (certainly not all) campgrounds don't have a 15 amp outlet. Yes, many have a 15 amp 110, a 30 amp 110 and a 50 amp dual-110 (since it's not really 220). But I note a significant percentage of campgrounds that just have a NEMA 30-TT outlet and a single 30amp breaker.

If you have room in the rigs panel, I would add a breaker, maybe separate the Microwave to it's own circuit (that's how my last two rigs were wired, from the factory)

I would suggest that you get someone involved that knows both the NEC and why it states what it does. I'm saying this as both an Electrical Engineer and a (former) Electrician that spent 35 years working the Navy ETs and am reasonable familiar with their training (or lack there-of).
I'm not saying hire it out, just find a local friend that can guide you through the "oh ****s"

Thanks for the info on the GFCI. Didn't know about the 2nd causing problems.
I've only replaced them, never added new.
That's why I'm asking. P

My problem is tripping the main CB when AC, microwave, toaster and or hair dryer are all in use at the same time.
Sometimes easier to just fix the issue than deal with "the look" when the power goes off.
She understands, but it doesn't mean she likes it. LOL

I haven't decided whether to fish walls or surface mount. Being a telco installer, I have the tools. Haven't looked at the route yet.

Every place I camp has a 30 and 15 circuit, and some a 50 also.

I was actually a Fire Controlman, ET with a hunting license!

Thanks for the info! It took me a few years, but I finally learned to ask questions of experienced people before starting any project.

[Carb_Cleaner]

Put one of these on the outside of the camper. It's a male 110 plug that the end of an extension cord plugs into. From there, add a circuit breaker or fuse and run your #12 (20 Amp circuit) or #14 (15 Amp circuit) Romex wire, using a GFCI outlet for the first outlet in the circuit (protecting the other outlets down the line). I did this to my cargo trailer, but I omitted the breaker/fuse for simplicity, relying on the source breaker to trip if something's wrong. In 12 years, I haven't had an issue, but I don't run 1500 watt hairdryers in my trailer, either.
I've encountered a few campgrounds that do not have 20 or 15 amp service. Only 30 or 50 Amp. That's a bit of a snag for this plan. Adding a breaker to your existing panel is probably easiest, if there's space and capacity available. I'm not an electrician.
This is an example. I made zero effort to find the best deal:
http://www.amazon.com/Leviton-5278-CWP-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B003ATXIBG

[n7bsn]

Sounds like you are planning to add two circuits.

You do know you only have to have on (the first) GFCI in a circuit to protect the entire circuit, right? You connect the source to the "line" and the remainder of the outlets to the "load".

You don't really want to put a 2nd GFCI on an existing one. You will run into false ground-trips.

The biggest problem is getting inside the walls to run the wires. Unless you are going to surface mount your cables.

Also, your basic assumption if flawed. You are going to run a cord to the pedestal 15 amp, a lot (certainly not all) campgrounds don't have a 15 amp outlet. Yes, many have a 15 amp 110, a 30 amp 110 and a 50 amp dual-110 (since it's not really 220). But I note a significant percentage of campgrounds that just have a NEMA 30-TT outlet and a single 30amp breaker.

If you have room in the rigs panel, I would add a breaker, maybe separate the Microwave to it's own circuit (that's how my last two rigs were wired, from the factory)

I would suggest that you get someone involved that knows both the NEC and why it states what it does. I'm saying this as both an Electrical Engineer and a (former) Electrician that spent 35 years working the Navy ETs and am reasonable familiar with their training (or lack there-of).
I'm not saying hire it out, just find a local friend that can guide you through the "oh ****s"

[Crazy_Ray]

www.myrvus/electric

[pianotuna]

Hi,

I have 3 shore power cords. The OEM 30, a 20 and a 15 amp.

I "broke out" the converter and the water heater from the breaker panel.

I added female plugs to the oem breakers and male plugs to the wires.

I added two outlets to each of the auxiliary shore power cords. In winter I use them to run extra electric heat.