How do I move weight forward?

[RoyBell]

I am looking at side by sides for my 320G. On the scales with no bike/water the trailer has 12,120 lbs on the axles and 2,620 on the pin. With 1500 lbs of water and motorcycle, it shifts the weight to the trailer axles by 2,000 lbs and pulls almost 500 lbs off the pin. 14,120 on axles and 2140 on the pin.

This puts my axles at max load (7000 lb axles) despite being under GVWR.

It appears the water tank is towards the front front half of the garage and the fuel cell is at the rear half.

If I look at a 1700 lb side by side, I would have to run no water. However, it would pull so much weight off the pin, that my axles would be severally overloaded, despite being so much under GVWR. If I put more ballast on the pin, would it offset the weight in the garage?

It just blows my mind that adding 1500 lb to the garage adds 2000 lbs to the trailer axles. Adding 1700-1800 lbs would likely add 2400 lbs to the trailer axles

I have about 7" clearance now to the bedrails. Would lowering the pin an 1-2 inches and going with shorter tires (I have 35s), for another 1" gain transfer enough weight back to the truck to make it worth while? It's a little low in the rear currently which is likely contributing to this problem.

I am not sure what else I could do. There isn't much weight in the garage other than a portable grill and spare tire (maybe 100 lbs total) which I can transfer to front storage. We travel pretty light otherwise.

[dedmiston]

schlep1967 wrote:

dedmiston wrote:

schlep1967 wrote:
This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle.

I dunno about that.

No, not 36.5 footers. The longer/heavier rigs have triple axles (like mine).

Okay how about most toy haulers with dedicated garages that don't require putting your toys in the living room?

Nope. The garage is irrelevant. It's a function of length and weight.

Shorter rigs are less likely to have dedicated garages, so there's a slight correlation, but there are lots of long models too with open floor plans that do have the third axle.

Garage or no garage, it's the size of the trailer that makes the difference.

[RoyBell]

schlep1967 wrote:

dedmiston wrote:

schlep1967 wrote:
This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle.

I dunno about that.

No, not 36.5 footers. The longer/heavier rigs have triple axles (like mine).

Okay how about most toy haulers with dedicated garages that don't require putting your toys in the living room?

Mine has a dedicated 11' garage. As stated before, I don't think there are any sub 40' trailers ( I was limited to 37-38') that are triple axle with dedicated garage. With 11' garage you are limited to how big a rig you can bring along anyways. Some of these SxS are extremely heavy for their length. I am about to pull the trigger on a 50" SxS, but then I started looking at the larger ones. They are almost twice the weight though.

[RoyBell]

valhalla360 wrote:

RoyBell wrote:
I appreciate everyone's responses so far. Putting ballast on the pin would not be my first choice, just wondering if it would work. As well as wondering how much I am putting on the axles being a little low in the back.

My pin is really light.

Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%)
Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%)

With the bike and water it tows absolutely wonderful. Without the weight, it sways a lot.

I was restricted by length due to my choice of camper storage. As a result, I chose a double axle trailer under 38'. I knew there would be limitations but this model seemed to have the best CCC of the ones I looked at. Once on the scales, obviously I am having some issues with distribution. It's fine for my cycle and smaller sxs, which is what I will have to stay focused on. I will play around a little more, run less fuel in the cell. Move some weight around the best I can, maybe see if lowering the pin will help any. The factory spare is just in front of the axles, maybe I can move that to the front storage as well.

Upgrading the axles seems like the best option, but not necessary if I can figure out how to distribute the weight.

I'll keep everyone updated.

Balast on the pin would increase the Percentage pin weight but wouldn't do anything for the overweight axles.

You are WAYYYY light at 13% with the bike in the back and adding another 1500lb would only make it worse. It would probably drag you below 10% and I would worry about handling.

I believe you are running up against the technical vs practical limits for CCC. Even with your Bike, it's questionable at 13% pin weight. It's odd that adding weight to the back and reducing pin weight is making the ride worse. Typically they higher the pin weight the better the towing experience.

It's possible the manufacturer just mucked up the design with no practical way to utilize the garage to it's full rating.

13% is light, but it tows straight as an arrow with the 1500lbs. I have 3K miles towing up and down mountains like that no problem. And I would not be adding an additional 1500 lbs. I cant tow the bike and a SxS at the same time. And there is no limit on the garage for any toy hauler. Just CCC which includes weight in the rest of the camper.

[schlep1967]

dedmiston wrote:

schlep1967 wrote:
This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle.

I dunno about that.

No, not 36.5 footers. The longer/heavier rigs have triple axles (like mine).

Okay how about most toy haulers with dedicated garages that don't require putting your toys in the living room?

[dedmiston]

schlep1967 wrote:
This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle.

I dunno about that.

No, not 36.5 footers. The longer/heavier rigs have triple axles (like mine).

[Itried]

I would look at adding a second fresh water tank as far forward(forward of the front entry)between the frame rails. Toys in the back, fill the front tank, no toys use the back tank. Plumb it up so you can use either and maybe even transfer between tanks if your situation changes while on the road. You might even be able to move the existing tank forward. Only likely thing that might screw up this idea will be slide mechanisms.

Just an option to look at...

[valhalla360]

RoyBell wrote:
I appreciate everyone's responses so far. Putting ballast on the pin would not be my first choice, just wondering if it would work. As well as wondering how much I am putting on the axles being a little low in the back.

My pin is really light.

Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%)
Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%)

With the bike and water it tows absolutely wonderful. Without the weight, it sways a lot.

I was restricted by length due to my choice of camper storage. As a result, I chose a double axle trailer under 38'. I knew there would be limitations but this model seemed to have the best CCC of the ones I looked at. Once on the scales, obviously I am having some issues with distribution. It's fine for my cycle and smaller sxs, which is what I will have to stay focused on. I will play around a little more, run less fuel in the cell. Move some weight around the best I can, maybe see if lowering the pin will help any. The factory spare is just in front of the axles, maybe I can move that to the front storage as well.

Upgrading the axles seems like the best option, but not necessary if I can figure out how to distribute the weight.

I'll keep everyone updated.

Balast on the pin would increase the Percentage pin weight but wouldn't do anything for the overweight axles.

You are WAYYYY light at 13% with the bike in the back and adding another 1500lb would only make it worse. It would probably drag you below 10% and I would worry about handling.

I believe you are running up against the technical vs practical limits for CCC. Even with your Bike, it's questionable at 13% pin weight. It's odd that adding weight to the back and reducing pin weight is making the ride worse. Typically they higher the pin weight the better the towing experience.

It's possible the manufacturer just mucked up the design with no practical way to utilize the garage to it's full rating.

[RoyBell]

I appreciate everyone's responses so far. Putting ballast on the pin would not be my first choice, just wondering if it would work. As well as wondering how much I am putting on the axles being a little low in the back.

My pin is really light.

Pin garage empty: 2,620 lbs (17.75%)
Pin Bike+water: 2,140 lbs (13.16%)

With the bike and water it tows absolutely wonderful. Without the weight, it sways a lot.

I was restricted by length due to my choice of camper storage. As a result, I chose a double axle trailer under 38'. I knew there would be limitations but this model seemed to have the best CCC of the ones I looked at. Once on the scales, obviously I am having some issues with distribution. It's fine for my cycle and smaller sxs, which is what I will have to stay focused on. I will play around a little more, run less fuel in the cell. Move some weight around the best I can, maybe see if lowering the pin will help any. The factory spare is just in front of the axles, maybe I can move that to the front storage as well.

Upgrading the axles seems like the best option, but not necessary if I can figure out how to distribute the weight.

I'll keep everyone updated.

[valhalla360]

Messing around with the pin height will have no appreciable impact on the axle weights.

If you got way out of level, it could actually cause problems. When level, the axle weights should be close to identical. A touch out of level and the suspension will still keep them relatively close. If it's way out of wack, the axle on the low end will pick up weight from the other axle putting it even further over the limit.

PS: if you are not level currently, getting it level would be a good thing but won't solve you weight issue.

[valhalla360]

Adding more weight is not a good solution as it ADDS weight. Anything that doesn't go on the pin will only increase the axle weights. Weights behind the axles will add not only the weight of the item but also, whatever it takes off the pin weight (further back, the more it shifts weight from the pin to the axles).

You need to SHIFT existing weight towards the front (even if it's still behind the axles further forward helps). Is there gear in the garage you can shift to the front underbelly? Depending on the exact distances moved, it can have the effect of moving more than 100% of that weight off the axles.

Removing weight can help but again, removing it from further back is more effective. That's a big water tank. If it's over the axles, try running with only enough for a roadside potty stop and fill up when you get to your destination. 3/4 of a 115gal tank is 700lb on the axles. Likewise, can you fill the fuel tank at your destination? 30 gal behind the axles add somewhere around 400lb to the axles.

What you are seeing is a simple teeter tatter effect. If you have a 100lb kid sitting on one end and it's all the way on the ground, almost all the kids weight is sitting on end of the board with almost none on the center support. If you put a 100lb kid on the other end and balance, so the board is level and neither kid's feet are touching the ground, adding the 2nd 100lb kid added around 200lb to the center support.

Somewhat odd is toy haulers typically have HIGH empty pin weights so that when you load the garage, the pin weight is still in the 20-25% range. According to the link you provided, the empty pin weight starts at only 19%, so loading up the garage. Before you add the side by side, you are already down below 18%. I would expect another 1500lb in the rear will put you at a very marginal 15%.

[ndrorder]

With no water or bike, but with the SxS, the trailer will be at GVWR. Adding ballast isn't an option, but moving or removing weight is. Sounds like fuel, spare, and grill get moved to the truck bed to allow some water fill or to bring axle weight down. Even if the axles are upgraded, will the pin handle pulling more weight than gvwr?

[schlep1967]

The problem is you are working with a poorly designed toy hauler. The axles on that model are at the very front of the garage so none of the garage weight can be transferred to the pin. This is why most toy haulers are 3 axle.
The RV companies trying to do this with 2 ales are constrained by the fact that the trailer has to go down the road with proper weight distribution when empty and when loaded.
Like others have said you can try to back the side by side in putting more weight closer to the axles and less on the end of the lever lifting weight from the nose.

[JIMNLIN]

Some old members may remember this but several years back we had a Rv.net member who I think had a tri axle TH ?? with the same problem. His rig was a handful with the garage loaded. He worked with his trailer mfg and the solution was for them to reposition the axles under the unit.
I've had this done by a big rig trailer repair shop on a tri axle GN stock trailer.

Another option is 8k axle upgrades if moving things around fails.

IMO NHTSA screwed the pooch with their GVWR rules change in early '00s. They issued a NPRM for CFR 571 rules change regarding setting a rv trailers GVWR.
Consumer groups were pushing rules changes to same as a commercial trailers/motor vehicles with the sum of the axle ratings as its GVWR. However they caved in to RVIA push to allow lower axle rating than the units GVWR. They saved a few bucks.
All my commercial class trailers GVWR has always been the sum of its axle rating.

[RoyBell]

dedmiston wrote:
Roy - Do you travel with a full fuel station? This wouldn't help much, but what about traveling with fuel jugs in the bed instead of filling the fuel station? Or what about filling up the fuel when you're closer to your destination?

I can't tell from your post what your hauler is? (I don't recognize the model number.) You talk about your pin instead of your tongue, so I assume it's a fifth wheel. How long is your fiver and what's the configuration? Do you have a dedicated garage or open floor? And how many axles?

If you have an open floor, can you move your bike forward at all? (You said bike, right?) How heavy is the bike? Would it make any difference if you loaded it in backwards?

Can you load a heavy cooler and load it towards the front?

My fuel station was full. Approx 30 gallons. My TH is Momentum 320G

It has double axles, 36.5' and 11' garage. I've weighed it dry and with the Harley (900lbs) and 3/4 tank of fresh water and it came in approx 1500 heavier than without it. I have a post below about the weights.

I understand what's going on, I just am not sure how to fix it.

For instance, 1500 lb in the garage, removes 500 lbs from the pin and total trailer axles go up 2,000 lbs. If I put 500 lbs of ballast back onto the pin, would my trailer axles only increase by the 1500lbs I put in the garage, or would the 500lb extra ballast on the pin negatively affect the trailer axles as well?

Most of the weight/chairs are under the front bed or front pass-thru, which is about as far forward as I can go. I just have a 2nd spare and my portable grill in the garage, which I can't see equating to much over 100 lbs. I am working on putting them in the front storage though.

[CA_Traveler]

Not a TH guy but since he's apparently at the max tires adding weight is not a option. What would help is to move any cargo either inside or storage areas forward of the tires, which reduces the tire weight and moves some weight forward to the pin. Or moving cargo to the TV.