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Anyone interested in 83 Pace Arrow Tear down and Rebuild?

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Started to look into some water damage in the kitchen of our 83 Pace Arrow. The more I looked, the more I found. I have some pics of the damage so far. Anyone interested in following a rebuild thread?
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.
8,452 REPLIES 8,452

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
RCtime wrote:
I have been a member here for many years, and this is by far the most interesting and informative post I have ever come across.
Good luck to you and many happy travels when you finish her up.



Thank you very much. I appreciate the kind words.
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

RCtime
Explorer
Explorer
I have been a member here for many years, and this is by far the most interesting and informative post I have ever come across.
Good luck to you and many happy travels when you finish her up.
Ron
2002 34HD Winnebago Journey DL, Cat. 330/freightliner
2013 Honda CRV - Garmin 1490t
Great wife & Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, RIP
TT/N

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Now, lest you think there isn't much weight being put on here, I stepped on a scale. This pic is pretty poor, but I did have additional weight on my shoulders when I stepped on the scale, and while standing on the insulation.

The pic shows the scale, which max's out at 330 lbs.





That's right - 358 lbs total. All being supported by a 1.5 x 6 x 30 inch piece of insulation, with thin plywood on each side. This one did bow more than the other 2, obviously, but was in no danger of breaking.

So with a little math - 6 x 30 = 180 sq inches / 144 = 1.25 sq ft. 358 lbs / 1.25 = 286.4 lbs per sq ft. The 144 is sq inches per sq ft.

Probably, if I had not seen it myself, I would have trouble believing it.

So, it looks like even with thin plywood glued to insulation, it does indeed create a relatively stable wall.

Now, this does not take into account all the stresses associated with a motor home driving down the road, but it does give some idea of how well it would take weight.

And by the way, that plywood, was only $10 a sheet.
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Well now, lets see how far we can take this....

So, next I took a 1.5 inch piece of blue board, and glued the el cheapo plywood from the Depot, onto both sides, let it cure, and decided to step on this.

Let's let the pic speak for itself, and no, my left foot is not touching the floor.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
So, I thought, hey, what happens if I take only 2 pieces of blue board, 1.5 inches thick and glue them together?

Well, lets find out. So, I glued them together, again with gorilla glue, and then went to Home Depot, and bought a piece of 2.7mm plywood. That stuff is less than 1/8 inch thick, about .100 of an inch thick, instead of .128.

Next step, (pun intended), is to support them about 30 inches apart, and see what happens.

You guessed it - nothing but a little more bow in the center. So, now we have a 3 x 6 x 30 inch sandwich, which didn't break when I stepped on it.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
So, after gluing those 4 pieces back together, I glued 1/8 inch plywood to the top and bottom of the assembly. So, we are back to about a 6 x 6 inch stack of blue board insulation, sandwiched between 2 thin pieces of plywood, again supported about 30 inches apart.

This was only cheap stuff from one of the box stores, and nothing special. Just a piece I had laying around.

I stepped on it, and nothing happened. Oh, it bowed very slightly in the center, but not much. So, the plywood sandwich made a huge difference.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Here is something I have been wanting to post for a while, and now seems like as good a time as any.

This first pic is one where I glued 4 pieces of blue board insulation together with gorilla glue. They are roughly 3 feet long and 6 inches wide, and 1.5 inches thick, so we had 6 inches thickness total. I was curious as to how much weight they would support.

They were supported on each end, and the supports were about 30 inches apart. The moment I stepped on them, boom - straight to the floor. I didn't even get all my weight on them.

This pic does not show that - forgot to take a pic, but afterwards, I glued them back together in the middle where they had broken. That you can see inside the red rectangle.

More to come in the next couple of pics and posts.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Bruce Brown wrote:


In you case, when you're done it seems like you're going to have a combination of lamination and hung wall.


At the moment, there is nothing left that's laminated.....LOL...
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

Bruce_Brown
Moderator
Moderator
fulltimin wrote:

I feel your pain.... The rv manufacturers have used the wall gluing system for years. It does provide a fairly stiff sidewall, without a huge amount of weight. ..


That's one of the many things I like about a Newmar, it is not built this way.

Newmar, Monaco/Holiday Rambler, Travel Supreme/Entegra all use hung wall construction. It's not laminated, therefore it cannot delaminate.

We've owned a MH with delamination and I've worked on both MHs and TTs with delamination. I like hung wall much better.

In you case, when you're done it seems like you're going to have a combination of lamination and hung wall.
There are 24 hours in every day - it all depends on how you choose to use them.
Bruce & Jill Brown
2008 Kountry Star Pusher 3910

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Shacklaw wrote:
Fulltimin, I just read through this entire thing and you scare the heck out of me! Why? Because I have a 91'Southwind I'm restoring with a "soft wall" by the passenger seat, by the dinette and in the bathroom and several delams on the outside! YIKES! I've just finished the mechanicals and contemplating the inside, and I convinced my wife it was a piece of cake after her begging me to set it on fire! I'm inspired and daunted by your work. Keep it up so I won't loose faith! LOL!



I feel your pain.... The rv manufacturers have used the wall gluing system for years. It does provide a fairly stiff sidewall, without a huge amount of weight. Add a few steel studs in there, and you have a decent wall, assuming you don't roll it over...

So, I would assume your sidewalls are assembled the same way mine are. As such, as you saw in earlier pictures, the outside delamination is because the outside plywood got soaked, and disintegrated. Fleetwood did not use exterior plywood, so the glue just gave up the ghost.

The interior paneling, is basically the same, got wet and started to fall apart. So much for me thinking I can just replace a couple of sheets of paneling, and I am good to go....LOL.

The thing that surprised me the most, was that some of the leaks were not evident, or visible.

I have seen videos of guys that just removed a window, pulled the fiberglass out a little, and shot epoxy down in there, applied pressure from the outside, and left it harden, and called it fixed.

If it's a small area, I suppose that might work, if the leak has been repaired first, and the area dried out first.

If it's a large area, I'm not sure that is a great idea, but to each his own.

In our case, my wife and I decided before I started this project, that the inside should be upgraded, and look a little more homey...(not homely)... homey - more like a home.

Little did I realize what I was actually getting into. LOL.

However, rv's are available anywhere, but having one that looks more like a home inside, is something special, built to suit the owner. There are pictures of rv's around, that were upgraded, sometimes with just paint, wallpaper, cabinet doors, kitchen back splash, etc, and completely changed the interior looks. So much so, that it looked like a small cabin in the woods, not an rv, from the inside.

One of the things, (not the only one), that I am pressuring myself to do, is this....The shower is in use, less than 1/2 hr per day. As such, that is basically wasted space, the other 23.5 hours of the day.

So, why not put that space to work doing something else, something that is usable during the day, and easily movable for those few minutes, when we need a shower. Once that is over, let's go back to using that space for what we really need.

Perhaps your wife needs to see what "can be", instead of "what is".

A little like restoring an antique car, that has a lot of rust and doesn't run. It's not going to stay that way.

Keep us updated on your progress...and thank you.
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

Shacklaw
Explorer
Explorer
Fulltimin, I just read through this entire thing and you scare the heck out of me! Why? Because I have a 91'Southwind I'm restoring with a "soft wall" by the passenger seat, by the dinette and in the bathroom and several delams on the outside! YIKES! I've just finished the mechanicals and contemplating the inside, and I convinced my wife it was a piece of cake after her begging me to set it on fire! I'm inspired and daunted by your work. Keep it up so I won't loose faith! LOL!
91 Southwind 33L

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Jim@HiTek wrote:
Remember to leave an open section under the driver so you can use your feet to get the rig moving...ala Fred Flintstone. I for one would like to see that...



Yea, my legs are not that long.........Lol.....
If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

Jim
Explorer
Explorer
Remember to leave an open section under the driver so you can use your feet to get the rig moving...ala Fred Flintstone. I for one would like to see that...
Jim@HiTek
Have shop, will travel!
Visit my travel & RV repair blog site. Subscribe for emailed updates.
Winnebago Journey, '02
Cat 330HP Diesel, 36.5', two slides.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
The next area was on the passenger's side, indicated above by the red square.

This is where the generator was, that I removed. Since the genny is not going back into that same spot, I decided that I needed some steel floor joists, in order to have some support for the floor, that is going to installed back there.

In the pic below, you can see the new pieces of steel that I added, indicated by the red arrows. This area will be used for something else, so I need flooring there.

If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.

fulltimin
Nomad
Nomad
Back out with the welder today. I concentrated on 2 different areas in the rear of the motor home.

The first area was on the drivers side, indicated by the red circle. There was some welding that I hadn't completed on the bottom of the steel, between the flooring steel, and the wall steel.

I had welded everything on the top side, and about 1/2 of the bottom side, and I wanted to complete that, and finally did, today.


If you want to do something, you will find a way.
If you don't, you will find an excuse.

-------------------------------------------------

Good judgement comes from experience.
A lot of experience, comes from bad judgement.