Inconsiderate engineering

[Geocritter]

If any of y’all heard any far off cursing and swearing a week ago it was probably from me and a friend removing the grey water tank from my Class A RV. It seems that in a classic case of “inconsiderate engineering” Holiday Rambler had apparently chosen to build the RV around the grey water tank. I finally had to remove the badly cracked grey water tank by cutting it into two sections. I’m now having a slightly smaller grey water tank fabricated that I can reinstall in one piece.

Stories such as mine are far from uncommon. I really get upset when it’s something that's a “wear” item that the engineers know for certain will need to eventually be replaced (out of warranty of course). Car engines that must be removed to replace spark plugs, how about those AC condenser’s that are so buried in the dash so that a simple replacement turns into a day long ordeal just to remove the old condenser. I once made the mistake, on a Goldwing website, of criticizing Honda’s use of interference fit valves on a touring bike engine. You’d think I’d criticized God or something, yet I still wonder why they’d build an engine that could suffer extensive damage and expensive repairs should a timing belt break. In my opinion, since it’s a touring bike engine where reliability and maintenance ease should be first and foremost, interference fit valves have no place on such an engine. But what do I know; I’m but a simple geologist.

Anyone care to post or vent about inconsiderate engineering they’ve run into over the years.

Steve

[Geocritter]

I had a 1973 Mercury Capri I bought new that had bad valve seals. It didn’t severely affect the oil mileage so I ignored it until I went to sell the car and everyone was concerned with that puff of smoke at startup. I got all sorts of high prices to replace the valve seals with everyone talking about removing the head. One guy was so much lower than the rest I asked why. The answer was he’d screw an air fitting into the spark plug hole and pump 100psi compressed air into the combustion chamber. The compressed air kept the valves in place while he replaced the seals. It made such sense I let him do the repair and it came out great. A few years later I used his repair trick on a car myself and it worked like a charm.

[turbojimmy]

rgatijnet1 wrote:
My point is that when you run across a repair that seems next to impossible, do a thorough search online and you MAY find someone that knows how to do it much easier.

Yep - I've found that with very few exceptions, I'm not the first to attempt a particular repair. I didn't know where to begin with that stupid BMW. But YouTube videos and forum posts about the job were plentiful.

Same goes here - despite a wide variety of brands and vintage a lot of the basic systems share the same issues.

[ferndaleflyer]

Try a heat diverter door in a Ford truck---proper way is to remove the whole dash. Audi reccomends taking car to dealer to replace tail light bulb (took 5 min) How about a 6.0 diesel Ford? They make none of this stuff for us to fix.

[rgatijnet1]

One thing about the internet is that it does provide you with a lot of good information, and some outright garbage. I still do a lot of the work on my vehicles as well as my Son's when I am up in Maryland.
On one issue with his Jaguar, the factory/dealer way to change the oil pan was to remove the transfer case, etc. Cost to change a $140 part was close to $2000 at the dealer. Online at a Jaguar forum I saw where a few people had posted about changing this same part. It seems that there is a tab on the cast aluminum oil pan that gets in the way of removing the part. By cutting off this tab, it drops right out, without touching the transfer case. When you look at the replacement part you see that the tab is not really needed and the vehicle will operate just fine without it. It did not impact a gasket surface or eliminate any of the mounting bolts. Just this one little hint from a private mechanic took a 20+ hour job down to a 2 hour job. It was also something easily done in my Son's garage and it did not need to go to the dealer.
To be fair, the dealer was going to insure that everything was done according to Jaguar and everything would be exactly as it left the factory. On the other side of the coin, the removal of the tab did not affect the operation of the vehicle, which we changed out 30,000+ miles ago, and the savings stayed in my Son's pocket.
My point is that when you run across a repair that seems next to impossible, do a thorough search online and you MAY find someone that knows how to do it much easier.

[turbojimmy]

Since we're griping - I totally forgot about my most recent conquest: water pump on a new-ish BMW 330xi. It's electric and jammed up on the bowels of the engine bay. You have to get it from underneath, and you have to have the hands of a small child. There were a couple of times when I was border-line panicked because my hand was wedged and I couldn't get it out. You're unhooking and reattaching clamps totally blind. Steering rack needs dropped down to get clearance to get the pump out. And it's not that big. I was talking to a friend of mine who said "at least it's not an Audi - you have to remove the entire front clip!"

The more complicated things get, the more junk (wiring, plumbing, electronics) they need to jam into a small space. Remember when you'd work on a car, drop a wrench and it would actually fall to the ground? Those were the days.

My Allegro's 454 only has 2 wires of any consequence - one on the alternator and another at the ignition module. There's another pair for the oil and water temp senders. That's it. Big old Quadrajet and spark plugs that I can not only reach easily but I can SEE them!

Back on topic - looked at my tanks. The gray is just hanging from the bedroom floor with straps. Shower and sink plumbing appears to be easy to remove (cut). Black tank is similar, though the toilet flange is glued on. That would need cut out, perhaps requiring a new tank or some creative plumbing.

It's not that I wouldn't love to have a newer coach, but this old one suits me (and my budget) just fine. I love tinkering with stuff.

[Sprink-Fitter]

OH48Lt wrote:
The OP mentioned the Gold Wing engine, try replacing the air filter on those GL1800's. Its a 4 hour job for a common maintenance item. 10 minutes on a Harley, similar on almost any other bike.

It is not a 4 hour job on a Goldwing, my first time took 2 hours, after that about an hour. I don't think a dealer would charge four hours either.

[Old-Biscuit]

After my tenure in Uncle Sam's Canoe Club and working in the engine/fire rooms ALL repairs on everything since have been a cake walk :B

[rondeb]

Our biggest complaint about general maintenance on our RV is what should be a simple job of changing the oil. The drain plug is directly above the axle. We have tried using a funnel to reroute it around into a pan, placing the pan on the axle to drain into (you can imagine how that worked out) whatever you do the splatter is terrible and since your are working around the axle, you better have worn an old shirt because the oil will run down your arms. Now the filter is also directly above this same axle. Can not get it off without oil down your arms and splatters everywhere and the axle covered in old oil.

Then we have to deal with an oil fill that sits so tight up against the roof of the motor compartment, a can can not be tipped to empty. We use a funnel with a flexible tube to try to get the filling down lower, but never fails it overflows before we are done, as you can't see the actual fill of the funnel. You have to use your finger to feel with the oil get to close to the top.

After what seems to be hours of clean up of old oil off axle ourselves and the new oil which has dripped down the whole motor unit, we say never again. But we have to drive 40 miles to get an oil change and after a $200.00 bill, we say OH we can do this this time LOL

[pkunk]

Absolutely no way to remove or replace my black or gray tanks. They and 2 cross vent lines are sandwiched between the truck frame and the floor. No way to unfasten and slide them out without cutting the sidewall. When they develop a leak it's time to trade and let a stealer deal with it.

[Dan_L1]

This is what happens when a weapon designer/manufacturer designs a motorhome. Of course the cost is another matter. 🙂

Dan
with 19 years at FMC/UD/BAE

BigRabbitMan wrote:
It is stories like the above that make me keep lovin' my old coach. Fuel, black and grey tanks drop directly down and out. fresh water tank is inside under the couch and is removable. A small hatch was put in by the factory to be able to get to and remove the fuel pickup/sender assembly.

[wa8yxm]

Sadly, this practice of building the body around the tanks is common.

There is a story that is supposed to be True about Henry Ford, They brought him a design for a new carburetor I forget how many screws but he took one look and said "TOO MANY SCREWS" and tossed it back,,, So they revised, the new one had only 4 screws.. His response was "Still too many screws" The final design had but a single screw you removed to clean the carb.. He liked that one.

My observation: In the 1970's I could change a heater core on my wife's ltd by simply clamping the two heater hoses (Hemostat style) and removing them from the core, Remove oh, about a dozen screws, lift the lid, the insulation, the core, drop in the new core replace insulation and lid reconnect hose,unclamp, start car and top off coolant.

Now, this is for a more modern car,, Ford product

Disassemble passenger side of dash.
Evacuate air conditioning system
Disconnect A/C lines at firewall and cap off
(Offically you drain the cooling system but everybody just):
Clamp heater hoses and disconnect at fire wall.

Slide air conditioner evaporator out on it's rails and lift core out from behind it.

Re-assembly is reverse procedure.

Of course it could be worse: Renault: REMOVE STEERING COLUMN

I kid you not.

My theory: they get a bonus for making it hard to service so the service technicians can work more hours and the dealers make more profit on repairs.

[wannavolunteerF]

I had a Chevy Cavalier that we had to pull gas tank to replace fuel filter and pump, a Ford truck that the oil drain was directly above an brace for the fenders that had a hole in the brace so the oil would come out, but my current truck takes the cake, unless the dealer took me....
rear window motor died I thought, I would have left it dead if I could have shut the window. dealer says we have to pull window to replace.. then called and said wiring harness on window was fried from the motor quitting, need new window.. I did get them to call around and get a replacement window at a lower price than the Ford factory price..replacing a whole sliding window and motor just because it won't close..

[dougrainer]

When they design ANY product, there are trade offs on how and why they locate items. So, yes, there are aggravating things, but it all depends on the floorplan and how and why they could only fit the items a certain way. They also do not worry about future r&r or access on some items. AS to Water tanks being a "wear" item. Not really, they do fail sometimes but not that often. Doug

[turbojimmy]

garry1p wrote:
What a surprise when I found out the fuel filter on my Chevy P/U is located inside the fuel tank!

I was told this is now common on many vehicles.

Not to worry - the fuel pump will fail before the filter gets clogged. And by the way, you can't just replace the pump anymore. You have to get the pump, sender and strainer (filter) as one part. Clever.