Battery Question -- 2xTrojan L16RE, 1500w Inverter?

[Sambino]

Hello all,

I'm slowly fixing up an old camper van that had all the electronics ripped out.

I'm looking at either two Trojan L16RE-B Batteries, or four Trojan T-105-RE Batteries. I'd rather get the two L16s, than the four T-105s, but I'm not sure how much power I could suck out of the L16s.

I'd like to be able to run a 1500W pure sine to power a 1500w toaster oven for up to half an hour. I know you need a pretty big battery bank to be able to run something that heavy duty. I was wondering if the L16s could do it, and if 4 105s could handle if the L16s probably couldn't. I figure the two sets in parallel would be able to up the amperage of the output, yeah?

Obviously I'd be using the thickest gauge wire I could get my hands on, and would have less than two feet between the batteries and the inverter. The batteries would be recharged with a 300-600w solar setup (if that matters), which is something I'm still figuring out as well.

Spec sheets for the batteries are here
L16- http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/L16REB_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf
T105- http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105RE_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

Thanks in advance!

[7ofus]

I think the L16 sized batteries are fantastic if you can fit them. I just load tested my L16s that I bought from NAPA in September 2007. That makes them over 8 years old. They are NAPA branded, so they probably came from the lowest bidder. They still test out at 88% (357 AH) of when they were new (405 AH) at the 20 hour rate. I have never gotten anywhere near that life out of the smaller 6 volt batteries.

Maintenance has been water once or twice a year and I leave them on a PD smart charger. I equalize them every couple of years (I know I should do it more often, but I have to use a manual charger to get the voltage and amperage I need and I am lazy.)

[pianotuna]

L-16 is a case size, not a particular make of battery. Blanket statements may be misleading.

[allen8106]

pianotuna wrote:
Hi,

Just another item that handy bob gets wrong.

Flooded L-16 batteries need to have the electrolyte "stirred".

allen8106 wrote:
Handy Bob would tell you to stay away from L16`s as they have developed issues of some type which I cannot recall or find. I highly recommend reading hs solar blog, very enlightening.

I didn`t say nor did Handy Bob state anywhere in his blog that I can find that L16`s didn`t need "stirred". All I said was that he said the L16's have recently developed some issues of some type that likely don`t make them a good choice.

[Boon_Docker]

" Stirred, not shaken. "

[pianotuna]

Hi,

Just another item that handy bob gets wrong.

Flooded L-16 batteries need to have the electrolyte "stirred".

allen8106 wrote:
Handy Bob would tell you to stay away from L16`s as they have developed issues of some type which I cannot recall or find. I highly recommend reading hs solar blog, very enlightening.

[allen8106]

Sambino wrote:
Hello all,

I'm slowly fixing up an old camper van that had all the electronics ripped out.

I'm looking at either two Trojan L16RE-B Batteries, or four Trojan T-105-RE Batteries. I'd rather get the two L16s, than the four T-105s, but I'm not sure how much power I could suck out of the L16s.

I'd like to be able to run a 1500W pure sine to power a 1500w toaster oven for up to half an hour. I know you need a pretty big battery bank to be able to run something that heavy duty. I was wondering if the L16s could do it, and if 4 105s could handle if the L16s probably couldn't. I figure the two sets in parallel would be able to up the amperage of the output, yeah?

Obviously I'd be using the thickest gauge wire I could get my hands on, and would have less than two feet between the batteries and the inverter. The batteries would be recharged with a 300-600w solar setup (if that matters), which is something I'm still figuring out as well.

Spec sheets for the batteries are here
L16- http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/L16REB_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf
T105- http://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/datasheets/T105RE_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

Thanks in advance!

Handy Bob would tell you to stay away from L16`s as they have developed issues of some type which I cannot recall or find. I highly recommend reading hs solar blog, very enlightening.

[Sambino]

Thanks, guys!

I'll be going with the T-105s.
Overall, they're looking a little better for what I want to get out of them, and If I ever wanted to add a little extra juice, it'd be nice to be able to just add two more T-105s, rather than two L16s.

I hadn't heard about the Puekert effect, that was some useful reading, thanks for directing me to it, and for all the math you did on my behalf!

Thanks again, everyone.

[wa8yxm]

Golden_HVAC wrote:
Do you really want to pick up 200 pound batteries?.

Fred. Please do what I just did (read the spec sheet) 118 pounds.

Now I can pick up a 200 pound battery.. But I can not install it.

118 Pounds I also could not install on my battery tray due to it's location (I could if I cleaned things up a bit)

60 pounds is about my limite.

To the O/P. either configuration shoudl work wioth a 1500 watt inverter,, I recommend 200 amp hours per kilowatt. but 100 per kilowatt can do it,, Just not for long.. At 370 amp hours you'd be over 200 amp hours per kilowatt.. Two pair of T-105's (about 440 hours total) would be better. but not by much. Look into the cost.

[pianotuna]

As yourself what the load per cell is. Ask about what the Puekert effect will be.

1500 watts is going to be a 150 amp draw, after inverter inefficiencies are included.

On the L-16 that means 150 amps per cell.

On the T-105 it means 75 amps per cell.

They test batteries at 25 amps for reserve capacity. It's nice to stay near that number if you can.

T-105 total is 464 amp-hours. To run the toaster oven for 24 minutes is going to consume about 92 amp-hours.

L-16 total is 370 amp-hours. To run the toaster oven for 18 minutes is going to consume about 74 amp-hours.

Sambino wrote:
I'm looking at either two Trojan L16RE-B Batteries, or four Trojan T-105-RE Batteries. I'd rather get the two L16s, than the four T-105s, but I'm not sure how much power I could suck out of the L16s.

I'd like to be able to run a 1500W pure sine to power a 1500w toaster oven for up to half an hour. I know you need a pretty big battery bank to be able to run something that heavy duty. I was wondering if the L16s could do it, and if 4 105s could handle if the L16s probably couldn't. I figure the two sets in parallel would be able to up the amperage of the output, yeah?

[ktmrfs]

Golden_HVAC wrote:
Do you really want to pick up 200 pound batteries?

I can tell you first hand that moving out my old 4 golf cart batteries and installing 4 new 67 pound batteries wore me out, when I was only 40! I could not consider moving a 120 pound 8D battery anymore. Forget anything about the L16's. . They are just to heavy.

I have a 1997 Trace M1512 inverter/charger in my 97 Bounder motorhome, with 4 golf cart batteries. It works out great. I also have 415 watts of solar.

SunElec.com is a great place to look for solar panels.

Fred.

I agree.. I went through the same thought process and ended up with 4 trojan GC. What I will say, is that IMHO the biggest downside to 6V batteries is high internal resistance. Not really designed for high current draw like most 12V will handle. So, if you want to run 1000+watts for any length of time when the batteries are partially discharged, you will be much happier with 4GC than 2. I think the -16's will be similar to 4 GC.

With the 4GC I can run my microwave most any time I want, till the batteries are down near 50%. With two, batteries had to be up near 80%+ or the inverter would drop out.

And price and availability wise, I found 4GC were less expensive and certainly more available. almost any town has a supply of GC, check out and golf club.

[2oldman]

Sambino wrote:
I'd like to be able to run a 1500W pure sine to power a 1500w toaster oven for up to half an hour...
Obviously I'd be using the thickest gauge wire I could get my hands on,

With power usage like that, you may want to consider going 24v or higher. Deep and prolonged heavy amperage draws can heat things up(wires, batteries) after a while, no matter how big the wire is.

[azrving]

Both will require 14.8 daily charges but I understand the 16's have special charging considerations due to the height of the battery.

300-600 solar may not be enough depending on all your other energy use. I would do an energy audit guesstimate. Number one is the question of if you ever want to run your ac. My answer was yes so I started with a 3000 watt Honda remote start generator. From there it seemed like the magnum inverter would have cost me $2,000 so I walk over and push the remote button for toaster, hair dryer, microwave. If you need silence than obviously you need to invert but it does get pricey to replace propane and avery small amount of gasoline.
I have 4 cheap 6 volts and only invert to a 40 inch tv and misc laptop etc. Along with house furnace and everything else a minimum day uses 60 to 80 ah. A heavier day uses 120 or more.

If you start out with 420 ah and can only use 210 at best and more likely say 190ish, in the end, with rain or clouds you could need a generator. I dont know your whole energy plan so just throwing some stuff out there.

I'm running 520 watts with Bogart engineering solar. I know I couldn't invert much with these batteries. I like my digitally controlled house furnace and we cant tolerate a catalytic for our sinus headaches so furnace is 6 amps alone. The ultimate answer there is a CAT platinum vented. Next pack will be probably be 105's.

Build carefully as there are many people out there that are way out of whack. 3 group batteries and a 2500 watt inverter!!!! or a 2500 watt inverter and 4 old gc2's but a 13.5 volt converter and 200 watts solar trying to bake cakes!!!!

[Golden_HVAC]

My inverter is MSW as pure sine wave back in 1997 was over $3 per rated watt, and not nearly as energy efficient as today. So a 300 watt inverter was something like $900 back then. My 1,500 watt Trace M1512 inverter was $750 'on sale'. Back then a 75 watt solar panel was also very expensive at $375. Today you can get a framed 140 watt solar panel for $229 at the link provided above.

Watch out for 'unframed' solar panels designed for mounting on homes, where the framework is installed on the roof, then panels mounted to that frame, then wired to the HOME, not a RV. Some of the frameless panels are $1 per rated watt or less. They do great at what they do, that is provide a 6 KW system for a home at the lowest possible cost and weight on the roof.

Yes you can get by without a gas oven, by installing plenty of solar power. I have a toaster in my RV and it will draw 75 amps from the 12 volt battery bank. The 15 minutes it will cook will take 3 hours of full solar production to recharge my batteries. So cooking longer than 15 minutes is not practical, unless you have well over 500 watts of solar installed. Better to just fire up the generator if you will be running a 2000 watt convection oven to broil a steak for 30 minutes. . .

Yes 4 golf cart batteries can supply 150 amps for 105 minutes (their full rating) and I have run my microwave for about 15 minutes (3-5 minutes at a time) from MSW inverter drawing 150 amps from the batteries. However it made the microwave cook so much slower that I had to replace it. Now I only run the micro on generator power.

You might consider three inverters. I rarely run the big inverter while dry camping. It is not energy efficient at running just the TV set. I have a e-meter that carefully measures the amp draw out of the batteries and counts down what leaves, and what returns. My big inverter running a Direct TV receiver, the 19" tube TV and other loads in my RV might show a -8 amp total. If I shut off the Trace and plug in a 150 watt inverter, run the TV on that, total amp draw is dropped to about 6 amps. Saving 24 watts is important to me when I want to stay parked for a week at a time.

The big pure sine wave inverter might have a larger than average standby amp draw, and say you have a 200 watt load, it might take say 240 watts input, or perhaps 275? While a 300 watt $35 MSW inverter might only have 220 watts input with a 200 watt load, due to it's much smaller capacitors, and transformers, ect.

I have the small inverter plugged into a cigarette lighter receptacle that I installed next to the TV and VCR. The factory installed #8 wire to the TV antenna and near the VCR. It is fused at only 20 amps, but that fuse has never blown in 20 years!

I have recommended people install a couple of cigarette lighter receptacles in their RV's with #10 wire and 20 amp fuse, using copper wire for supply and return to reduce voltage drop. I have run a dirt devil from the 150 watt inverter to clean up the old class C, and it worked fine. With the new class A, I would run the inverter/charger or 4 KW generator to run a larger home sized vacuum. It draws around 500 watts. . .

There are not that many loads that require PSW. Microwaves should be included in them. So would a compressor motor, that requires high torque. Charging cell phones, laptops, and ink jet printers run fine on MSW. Laser printers require PSW.

GOod luck with your system and have fun dry camping!

FreeCampgrounds.com offers some great dry camping areas, many are free.

Fred.

PS: Yes L-16 batteries have been used in many home applications with 100+ amps draw from each battery. But I don't think they are as energy dense as the T-105 or T-125 battery. That is you get say 440 amp hours from a T-105 battery pack at say 275 pounds, while only about 350 AH from a similar weight L-16 battery bank.

Personally I would avoid them at all costs due to their extreme weight. . . .

You might want to look into the T-125 battery if you can find them for a good price locally. But also know that some say to avoid them due to the less water under the plates. Some state that you have about 1/2" under the t-105 battery plates for junk to accumulate before it will short out a cell. With more plate and less space under it, there is less room for the T-125 plate to accumulate junk before the cell is shorted out.

Also some say that battery life of a L16 is less in home applications where the battery is not moved around. In a car, or RV, the battery is shaken on every move, agitating the plates, and fluffing off some 'stuff' that is not good for the plates, thus extending the battery life.

Anyway my next set of batteries will be Trojan T-105 due to the 13 year battery life that I got from the first set in my motorhome.

[Sambino]

Fantastic to know at least the 4 105s would work, but any clue how the unwieldy L16s would do with that kind of power draw?

They do weigh a ton, no doubt, but I could struggle through moving them the few times I'd have to. The slight cost savings over the 105s would in my mind be worth the extra weight induced hassle.

Thanks for the solar panel link, I'll be checking that out tomorrow!

I have a propane stovetop, but no oven. I think the investment would be better spent in my situation towards more solar/inverter power considering my minimal oven use, but heavy electrical consumption.
As for the MSW vs Pure, I'll need a pure for some other equipment, and it's looking like one big pure is ever so slightly cheaper than a big MSW and a small pure.

Thanks for the speedy replies, loved the info.