Coast to coast in an Electric car towing a trailer.

Re businesses attracting customers with charging stations: it just makes sense. If an electric vehicle owner has a choice of shopping at two malls, one with a charge centre and one that doesn't, they will probably choose the one with. We look at charging as a concurrent activity. Just a convenience. Kinda like choosing a gas station with a good coffee machine for you gas or diesel burners. :)

westernrvparkowner wrote:

smkettner wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Wow, I did a bit of research and some basic math and found out that the 50 AMP charger for a Tesla draws 40 amps at 240 volts (10 kw). Or to put it another way, 80 percent of the maximum available power at a 50 amp pedestal. Furthermore, a complete charge at that rate would take up to 7 hours. NEC allows 7 50 Amp pedestals per 200 amp service loop. 5 Teslas charging on that loop would take 100 percent of the available power for that entire loop, leaving the 7 RVs completely without power.
A complete charge for a Tesla would cost us around $7.00 (10 cents per kwh). It is our experience that a fully electric coach costs us around $5.00 per day in electrical costs, so the Tesla is nearly a 50 percent greater energy hog than a 45 foot Prevost (provided the Tesla only needed one charge that day. It is entirely possible that with it's 250 mile range a person could run it dry in the morning after charging all night and need another full recharge that same day). No way electric cars can share the current electrical grids in RV parks.

Share? If you have 5 out of 7 slots filled with Tesla I think your business is about to change.

But really why not allow ONE and charge him $35 to charge? (6 hour max) and send him on his way.

We don't have any slots filled with Teslas. I was just pointing out the electrical grids of RV parks cannot accommodate electric vehicles. To do so would require the remaking of the entire electric system in the park and that would cost 100s of thousands of dollars. And I am not going to rent a site for $35.00 to charge a vehicle. I get much more than that renting that site to an RV and I don't have someone trying to kill 6 hours of idle time. I think my business is going to remain pretty much the same until my batteries are fully discharged. People will stay in my RV parks and will refuel/recharge their vehicles at a vehicle refueling/charging facility. But until charging times improves dramatically or the range of electric vehicles increases significantly, electric vehicles will not become practical for many of us. I often face a 300 plus round trip that has to be completed in a day, hauling a substantial load in my pickup, often towing a utility trailer. Current electric vehicles would turn that into a three or 4 day journey. Might as well get a horse and wagon team and use no fossil fuels.

RVPO, While I enjoy reading your posts either for their entertainment value or their slightly skewed take on most subjects I have to say;

I wish you would learn to hit that *ENTER* key and PARAGRAPH your posts. It would make your communication much more effective, which I assume is your goal, and make it much easier for us to read. (To say nothing of counter with facts, have a good laugh or just shake our heads or in some cases be informed)

Thanks

The difference is the fuel cost is minimal for electric, not like gas or diesel, so it's actually very good advertising - especially since many people beyond those using it will be 'impressed'.
Then there are those who tell people to suck their exhaust fumes, direct from the pipe. That doesn't translate into good anything for most people.

John & Angela wrote:

Cummins12V98 wrote:
"EV drivers think differently then gas drivers. We rarely run the "tank" to empty."

I am guessing YOU are this way but is there some sort of study showing how EV drivers "think" ?

I have ZERO problems with EV cars I assume the upper end ones are a BLAST to drive. I do have a problem with the Superior than though attitude. The ones that feel there should be public charging stations for them free of charge because they are "saving the earth". Or as I motioned earlier the one that drug a cord across the steps to our accountant and made an unsafe condition just because that person failed to have their car fully charged before venturing out for the day.

Really irks me is when they tout "Zero Emissions" what a joke! There was an environmental impact when that EV car was made no different than any other vehicle and possibly worse.

Good morning. I can't relate to the "holier than thou" attitude as I haven't seen it. It may a regional thing to your area as I don't think I have ever heard annyone run across that. I''m also not up on anyone expecting free power. Some places have free chargers as a way to attract business for other products they sell but most actually charge for the power. Walgreens is a good example of this. Most of us charge at home on our dime.

The zero emmisions thing is just hype but mostly refers to the fact that once the vehicle has been manufactured it produces very little emmisions. I don't think anyone anywhere would be silly enough to argue that a gas or diesel powered vehicle emits a lot of emmisions compared to an electric vehicle. That's just common sense...backed up by every study ever done. From beginning to end an electric vehicle produces much less emmisions than a fuel fired vehicle. No one (anymore) is disputing this.

Happy trails.

If a business has to fuel a customer's vehicle to get them to be a customer they are either 1. a fuel station or 2. a not very good business. Yes, some businesses have installed recharging stations but there isn't a single one the relies on those customers to support their business models.
I would bet if you got a straight answer from them, they would say they installed them for the PR value only. Kind of like the county I live in deciding to continue to have glass recycling containers and then taking that glass to the landfill with all the other garbage. I has become too expensive to ship the glass to a refractory that will accept it (if there even is one that would take it, the county couldn't find one). But the county got so much flak from the recycling crowd when they decided to continue with the recycling containers so "the citizens will not get out of the habit of sorting recyclables" should the situation change and recycling of the glass becomes practical in the future. The county pegged the additional cost of having to empty the recycling containers into the common trash at "less than $100,000 per year" . Seems the trucks that empty the trash cans and dumpsters cannot empty the recycling bins, so the have to have the recycling contractor pick up the glass recycling and take it to the landfill transfer station. My tax dollars at work, making someone feel a bit more comfortable hugging their tree.
And that holier than thou crowd is heavily populated. Just watch Leonardo Di Caprio climb aboard a private jet to fly across the Atlantic to personally pick up his award for environmental awareness and then return the next day. Though, to be fair, he may have driven his Prius from one of his several 10,000 sq. foot plus homes to and from the airport.

Cummins12V98 wrote:
"EV drivers think differently then gas drivers. We rarely run the "tank" to empty."

I am guessing YOU are this way but is there some sort of study showing how EV drivers "think" ?

I have ZERO problems with EV cars I assume the upper end ones are a BLAST to drive. I do have a problem with the Superior than though attitude. The ones that feel there should be public charging stations for them free of charge because they are "saving the earth". Or as I motioned earlier the one that drug a cord across the steps to our accountant and made an unsafe condition just because that person failed to have their car fully charged before venturing out for the day.

Really irks me is when they tout "Zero Emissions" what a joke! There was an environmental impact when that EV car was made no different than any other vehicle and possibly worse.

Good morning. I can't relate to the "holier than thou" attitude as I haven't seen it. It may a regional thing to your area as I don't think I have ever heard annyone run across that. I''m also not up on anyone expecting free power. Some places have free chargers as a way to attract business for other products they sell but most actually charge for the power. Walgreens is a good example of this. Most of us charge at home on our dime.

The zero emmisions thing is just hype but mostly refers to the fact that once the vehicle has been manufactured it produces very little emmisions. I don't think anyone anywhere would be silly enough to argue that a gas or diesel powered vehicle emits a lot of emmisions compared to an electric vehicle. That's just common sense...backed up by every study ever done. From beginning to end an electric vehicle produces much less emmisions than a fuel fired vehicle. No one (anymore) is disputing this.

Happy trails.

"EV drivers think differently then gas drivers. We rarely run the "tank" to empty."

I am guessing YOU are this way but is there some sort of study showing how EV drivers "think" ?

I have ZERO problems with EV cars I assume the upper end ones are a BLAST to drive. I do have a problem with the Superior than though attitude. The ones that feel there should be public charging stations for them free of charge because they are "saving the earth". Or as I motioned earlier the one that drug a cord across the steps to our accountant and made an unsafe condition just because that person failed to have their car fully charged before venturing out for the day.

Really irks me is when they tout "Zero Emissions" what a joke! There was an environmental impact when that EV car was made no different than any other vehicle and possibly worse.

It's bad enough now on a road trip towing a long trailer with a truck and trying to find any gas station along the way, let alone one that you can fit into. I can't imagine how stressful it would to find any place that you can be assured of being able to charge up an electric vehicle. Do you book a "spot" at each planned stop on the trip in advance? Do you rely on an app or locator website? What if you get there and there aren't any charging stations left? How much charge would you leave on the batteries before plugging in again (on a trip).

I used to design electrical systems in all types of buildings. I can't imagine the implications and cost there will be for having to install code required charging stations in buildings. It seems like the primary focus today is on having charging available at work and at home and there isn't much consideration yet to making charging available between cities and towns. Development of EV charging infrastructure, code requirements, etc. is still in it's infancy. This Canadian Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Deployment Guidlines from 2014 and prepared by a consultant in San Francisco is an example. It has a table showing battery capacity and charging times for hybrids and battery EVs from 15 amps @ 120 volts to 85 amps at 240 volts. Would there be uniform code requirements across the US and Canada so you can go anywhere?

I'm not buying into the notion of "green energy" and electric vehicles. Even if your power source happened to be hydroelectric, tremendous amounts of fossil fuel was consumed in the process of building dams and the related infrastructure like transmission lines, roads, etc. Nowadays power utility companies in the US and Canada have interconnected grids and you can buy and sell blocks of power from each other across NA. You may not know if your power is nuclear, coal or hydroelectric.

I'm not buying into the notion of "green energy" and electric vehicles. Even if your power source happened to be hydroelectric, tremendous amounts of fossil fuel was consumed in the process of building dams and the related infrastructure like transmission lines, roads, etc. Nowadays power utility companies in the US and Canada have interconnected grids and you can buy and sell blocks of power from each other across NA. You may not know if your power is nuclear, coal or hydroelectric. I'm not buying into the notion of "green energy" and electric vehicles. Even if your power source happened to be hydroelectric, tremendous amounts of fossil fuel was consumed in the process of building dams and the related infrastructure like transmission lines, roads, etc. Nowadays power utility companies in the US and Canada have interconnected grids and you can buy and sell blocks of power from each other across NA. You may not know if your power is nuclear, coal or hydroelectric.

Where is all the copper going to come from for charging infrastructure and the EVs? Copper is expensive already. What about the environmental implications of the mining and smelting or the effects on human health?

I'm all for going green but the "big picture" of what it takes for an EV to be built and operated doesn't seem to get discussed. I really love our gas guzzling V10 truck and TT but I do feel guilty about contributing to damaging the environment.

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Wow, I did a bit of research and some basic math and found out that the 50 AMP charger for a Tesla draws 40 amps at 240 volts (10 kw). Or to put it another way, 80 percent of the maximum available power at a 50 amp pedestal. Furthermore, a complete charge at that rate would take up to 7 hours. NEC allows 7 50 Amp pedestals per 200 amp service loop. 5 Teslas charging on that loop would take 100 percent of the available power for that entire loop, leaving the 7 RVs completely without power.
A complete charge for a Tesla would cost us around $7.00 (10 cents per kwh). It is our experience that a fully electric coach costs us around $5.00 per day in electrical costs, so the Tesla is nearly a 50 percent greater energy hog than a 45 foot Prevost (provided the Tesla only needed one charge that day. It is entirely possible that with it's 250 mile range a person could run it dry in the morning after charging all night and need another full recharge that same day). No way electric cars can share the current electrical grids in RV parks.

In 1977 I was asked to invest in this new upstart company by one of it's founders (who shall remain nameless here). I just could not see for the life of me what this company was going to accomplish or how its product would ever be used...

They wanted $1000 dollars from me. I said "I am sorry I just cant see it"

That company was Microsoft and had I invested the $1000 I would be worth about 60 to 100 million today if I continued to hold the stock and reinvest.

The same thing happened to me when I heard about a new company/idea called Fed Ex...I thought who the hell needs anything overnight?

I learned my lesson after that.

Well needless to say sometimes our shortsightedness is our worst enemy.

And if you can plug in your Tesla ( a great car by the way) at your house overnight why not at the RV Park?

Who says it has to be a 3 hour recharge?

Anyone with a Tesla as a toad would not surprise me to rent two sites.
OTOH it would not surprise me either if they unplug the RV and plug in the Tesla as they turn in for the night... as long as they do not want air conditioning.
I could also see them using a splitter and turn down the variable charge current to avoid overload. Limited to 50 amps either way.
Maybe a $20+ RV+EV surcharge would grease the wheels.

westernrvparkowner wrote:

holstein13 wrote:

westernrvparkowner wrote:
Wow, I did a bit of research and some basic math and found out that the 50 AMP charger for a Tesla draws 40 amps at 240 volts (10 kw). Or to put it another way, 80 percent of the maximum available power at a 50 amp pedestal. Furthermore, a complete charge at that rate would take up to 7 hours. NEC allows 7 50 Amp pedestals per 200 amp service loop. 5 Teslas charging on that loop would take 100 percent of the available power for that entire loop, leaving the 7 RVs completely without power.
A complete charge for a Tesla would cost us around $7.00 (10 cents per kwh). It is our experience that a fully electric coach costs us around $5.00 per day in electrical costs, so the Tesla is nearly a 50 percent greater energy hog than a 45 foot Prevost (provided the Tesla only needed one charge that day. It is entirely possible that with it's 250 mile range a person could run it dry in the morning after charging all night and need another full recharge that same day). No way electric cars can share the current electrical grids in RV parks.

I'm really glad you are doing the research but your numbers make no sense at all. If you have 7 50 Amp pedestals and 5 of them have a Tesla charging on them, that leaves you only 2 spots left.

Where would you even plug in the 7 RVs if the pedestals are already taken? What is the likelyhood of you having 5 Teslas charging at maximum draw at the same time? This makes no sense. So the Tesla uses an extra $2.00 in electricity. How much do you charge for one of your sites? How much water does the Tesla use (probably close to zero). How much sewage does it produce (again, close to zero)? If you are completely honest with yourself, you'll see that a Tesla renting one individual spot and taking one outlet only is good business for you and for the environment and for your customers.

Note, I'm not suggesting the Tesla share a spot with the camper. I'm suggesting you rent out the Tesla spot and camper spot separately.

Those Teslas will draw maximum power for 7 to 8 hours, and since most everyone would be charging them overnight, they would be drawing that power at the same time. People with electric cars aren't going to pay for two sites, one for their RV and one for their car, they are going to want to charge their cars at their sites and it is not feasible in parks that have constructed their electrical grids to current NEC specs.
Now if someone wants to rent a site for their electric car and then rent an RV site for their RV, fine. But I would peg the number of electric car owners that are going to pay well over $100.00 a night for two RV sites at just about Zero.

I get where you are coming from but the pendulum doesn't have to swing to such extremes. For most EV drivers the ability to plug into a 120 plug on the site pulling 12 amps would suffice. EV drivers think differently then gas drivers. We rarely run the "tank" to empty. An overnight charge at low current (12 amps) would many times more than suffice to top things up. For situations like this the campground could simply stipulate what plugs can be utilized by the EV drivers and how much extra they would be charged. They do this with dog right now. Eg 3 bucks a day. EV drivers are not villains. We are not looking for free energy. We are not necessarily "greenies" as one poster implies. We simply enjoy hi performance technically advanced cars that have a refined ride. Why would any business try to avoid that kind of clientele. The hostility towards EV's by some surprises me. Kinda weird. Lots of silliness out there, or maybe just ignorance. Just sayin.

If you don't like the concept of EV's don't EVER drive one. You will be ruined for driving any car with a tail pipe afterwards. If you are the type that drives 400 miles at a shot with no breaks then an EV is not for you. However if you stop for a break every two or three hours then they might work for you. You will change how you do some things but change is not necessarily bad.


Just came back from supper. Car is now in the garage charging. We always charge on saturdays so we can go for a sunday drive. We charge sunday night after the drive and then not usually again till mid week. For our rhythm of life that works. We seem to go between 3 to 4 dollars of power per week. meh.... We have a little diesel car too. It doesn't get a lot of miles anymore as the go to car is the electric. Just a way fun car to drive.

Worth taking one out for a test drive although the choice of electric vehicles is going to explode in the next 2 years.

Enjoy