mass elec. storage 'battery' rethink the term application.

Gdetrailer wrote:

SDcampowneroperator wrote:
In definition Battery is stored energy, as in an artillery unit. That thought has been lost as today it is thought of only in the chemically reservation of electric power in units, credible to rvs and small unit chemically storage systems.
Where alternative power units like solar and wind could store their peak generation for peak usage times via 'battery' is not the mechanical but the physical.
A lake with water storage behind hydroelectric generators is a battery,
An underground salt cavern pressurized with compressed air is a battery
fluids heated, like salt or oil in daytime heating , release that energy at night, stored energy, a battery. Wind and solar will have to store that energy, pumping water back up into the lake, pressirizing the caverns, heating the oil and salt to store the energy for the nighttime demand to recharge fleets
Battery is a unit of energy storage , in projected electric mass transportation will require recharge primarily at night, when the sun dont shine and the wind dont blow.
The energy to provide for that will require sacrifice. changed downstream river flows, impacts of wind farms that pump water back up into the lake. increased solar heat reflectiion vs absorbed heat into the land, leading to higher daytime temps, cooler nights. disturbed air patterns.
Behind every well intentioned action there comes a reaction.

A glimmer of hope that at least one person aside from myself gets it..

For those that don't..

Old-Biscuit wrote:
Point being???

valhalla360 wrote:
Not clear what the point of all this is.

You must have been napping in Science and Physics 101 in High School..

Newton's First law of Motion

HERE

Newton's Third Law of Motion

HERE

Newton's second law applies also but I didn't look that up, I will leave that for you to search for..

Newton's laws talk about physical stuff, movement, lack of movement, energy..

But there is an inherent issue with "energy loss" during conversion of one energy to another.

Example, roll a ball into another, IF the conversion was 100% you would EXPECT the ball to roll the SAME distance as the FIRST BALL..

The second ball, however DOES NOT ROLL THE SAME DISTANCE, IT STOPS SHORTER THAN THE FIRST BALL.

If the second ball were to roll longer than the first ball then we would have something called "OVER UNITY" which is also know as a "perpetual motion machine" which some of us fully understand to be completely IMPOSSIBLE. The reason it is impossible is due to the inherent friction (LOSS) in the "system".

The same thing that happens with physical things happens with electrical things, some losses are detrimental to the efficiency of the entire system and you fall short of 100% conversion..

Energy conversion loss

HERE

"When energy is transformed from one form to another, or moved from one place to another, or from one system to another there is energy loss. This means that when energy is converted to a different form, some of the input energy is turned into a highly disordered form of energy, like heat. Functionally, turning all of the input energy into the output energy is nigh impossible, unless one is deliberately turning energy into heat (like in a heater). As well, whenever electrical energy is transported through power lines, the energy into the power lines is always more than the energy that comes out at the other end. Energy losses are what prevent processes from ever being 100% efficient. "

Law of conservation of energy

HERE

"The law of conservation of energy states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed - only converted from one form of energy to another. This means that a system always has the same amount of energy, unless it's added from the outside. This is particularly confusing in the case of non-conservative forces, where energy is converted from mechanical energy into thermal energy, but the overall energy does remain the same. The only way to use energy is to transform energy from one form to another.

The amount of energy in any system, then, is determined by the following equation:

UT=Ui+W+Q

UT

is the total internal energy of a system.
Ui
is the initial internal energy of a system.
W
is the work done by or on the system.
Q

is the heat added to, or removed from, the system.

It is also possible to determine the change in internal energy of the system using the equation: ?U=W+Q

This is also a statement of the first law of thermodynamics.

While these equations are extremely powerful, they can make it hard to see the power of the statement. The takeaway message is that energy cannot be created from nothing. Society has to get energy from somewhere, although there are many sneaky places to get it from (some sources are primary fuels and some sources are primary energy flows).

Early in the 20th century, Einstein figured out that even mass is a form of energy (this is called mass-energy equivalence). The amount of mass directly relates to the amount of energy, as determined by the most famous formula in physics:

E=mc2

E

is the amount of energy in an object or system.
m
is the mass of the object or system.
c
is the speed of light, roughly 3×108m/s."

Op was pointing out that that all man is doing is trying to "store" energy in one form and converting to another usable form later.

The downside is EACH time man tries to make a conversion there IS an energy loss in that conversion that leads to LESS "efficiency".

Also note, WE CANNOT "CREATE" ENERGY, we only can CONVERT ENERGY.

Coal power plants, we CONVERT solid energy like coal into heat and electricity.

Gas power plants, we CONVERT gas vapor energy into heat and electricity.

Nuclear power plants, we CONVERT highly refined radioactive material into HEAT and electricity.

Wind power, we CONVERT WIND by DRAG into HEAT and electricity.

Solar power, we CONVERT Solar RADIATION into HEAT and electricity.. And YES, solar panels GIVE OFF RADIATED HEAT FROM THE SUN INTO THE AIR AND OBJECTS SURROUNDING THE PANELS.. Basically trapping MORE heat from the sun into the Earth!!!

Nuclear power is by far the most potentially destructive and dirty means of converting energy.. In order to make "fuel" for the reactor, it must be highly concentrated, then highly refined, this creates many other atomic materials that have very long "half lifes" that must be stored or used some way.. Then you have to spent fuel rods which so far, NONE have been "recycled" or reused.. Those fuel rods have half lives going into THOUSANDS OF YRS! And they are just sitting in highly contaminated water "pools" until they can be safely handled and put into a permanent BURIED storage facility..

But yet, folks are blind to the Laws that many of the great early Physics and Scientists discovered and understood that are still in effect today..