Max Payload vs. Pin Weight (Ford, Ram, Chevy)

[bowler1]

Hi,
I recently bought a new 5th wheel and truck to tow it. I got a 40 foot Open Range with a 2500 pound pin weight.

I was looking at fairly loaded SRW long bed diesels from Ford, Chevy and Ram. I ended up getting the Ram due to the much higher payload. The Fords and Chevys that I was looking at had max payloads (from the door sticker) around 3400 pounds, while the similarly equipped Ram had a pay load of 4200 pounds. My thought was that with the camper and truck fully loaded I would be pushing up against the max payload of the Chevy and Ford (even though I liked them a bit better).

So my setup now, even when fully loaded, will provide me close to 1000 pounds of margin I would guess. Theoretically should my truck do a better job of towing my trailer given that I am significantly below the max payload vs the Chevy or Ford that would be right up near their max? I would guess that would be the case from a logical perspective.

My other question is what would make there be such a big difference in payload between the Ford/Chevy and the Ram? For similarly equipped models (and all long bed, quad cab diesels with automatic transmissions) the difference is about 800 pounds. That is not a small difference. What would be so drastically different with the Ram to justify such a higher rating? Is there something inherint in their design (solid front axel for instance) that makes it more capable of hauling more weight? I assume that the three trucks are all rated against the same standards.


Thanks
Matt

[Cummins12V98]

RAM DRW's have a larger ring gear (11.8" ?) and more bolts holding it in place than the SRW's.

[4x4ord]

It's possible that stiffer suspension than what is needed makes your truck less safe than having a little softer tuned springs. I remember driving down a wash board road with my father's 1 ton. The truck bounced all over the road. I could hardly believe how horrible it handled. Immediately afterwards I drove the same stretch of road at the same speed with my 3/4 ton and it was a relaxing drive.

[rhagfo]

Grit dog wrote:

chiefcamper wrote:
Just traded in a 2015 Chevy 2500HD which was overloaded carrying our 40' 5th Wheel but it did not break, we only towed it a few times before buying the new truck. The new truck is a 2018 Ram 3500HD with a 6.4L Hemi. Yellow sticker payload of 4323lbs, 7000lb rear axle.

I am not sure claims of a 4000lb pin weight are always true with today's 5th wheels where the trailer wheels are now more forward. My unloaded mfg weights are 11575lbs (yellow sticker) with a max of 13,980lbs loaded. The unloaded pin weight is 1980lbs. So real world if I load the trailer with 2000lbs that would equal 13,575, 2000lbs seems like a lot to me but I am sure it is possible! Figuring a 25% pin weight would be @3400lbs. So an additional 900lb cushion for people, tools, hitch etc. seems plenty and I would still be under the axle and tire ratings. 25% seems high but for arguments sake I went high. YMMV 🙂

Any way you look at it far safer than the 2500HD which was a great truck!

Nice story. And your parting line is one that car salesmen LOVE to hear!
Now I'm gonna blow your mind. New Ram=nice truck. 2015 Chevy = nice truck.
What to YOU makes the Ram far safer than the Chevy you traded?
Your Chevy was/is identical to a 3500HD, save for stiffer rear springs.
Your Ram 3500 would be identical to a Ram 2500 except Ram changed the rear suspension 5 years ago to coils. Other wise same truck. For both brands, same frame, same power train, same brakes, Same tires and wheels, same axles. Actually the rear axle in your new ram is the same as the one in your Chevy.
Point being, the new truck is not inherently safer AT ALL than your old one with one exception. The rear suspension is stiffer, which can be accomplished for $200-500 with any number of easy, proven, bolt on suspension products.
Again, nice truck, but it's only "safer" in your mind....which is the most important part I suppose since you're the one driving it.

X2
until you step up to a DRW, there is no real difference between 2500/250 and 3500/350 SRW.

[MikeRP]

Does anyone know if the brakes and rear axle is the same on a Ram 3500 HD SRW as it is on a Ram 3500 duelie. I understand the rear axle would be longer on the duelie but I’m wondering if everything else is the same?

I still believe that SRW trucks made today from the big three are all very capable trucks and like you said about the 2500 difference the OP had before, there are methods to make a 3500 SRW more capable i.e. ride rite airbags and Rickson’s 19.5 inch rims and tires.

There are 19.5 inch tires that are virtually the same outside diameter as the standard Ram18 inch tires.

One thing that I experienced on my Class C was when those ride rotes are inflated to about 75 psi - it would noticeably improve handling and helped load the front axle.

Good luck to the OP - pay attention to your RAWR and tire ratings and you will be fine.

[Grit_dog]

chiefcamper wrote:
Just traded in a 2015 Chevy 2500HD which was overloaded carrying our 40' 5th Wheel but it did not break, we only towed it a few times before buying the new truck. The new truck is a 2018 Ram 3500HD with a 6.4L Hemi. Yellow sticker payload of 4323lbs, 7000lb rear axle.

I am not sure claims of a 4000lb pin weight are always true with today's 5th wheels where the trailer wheels are now more forward. My unloaded mfg weights are 11575lbs (yellow sticker) with a max of 13,980lbs loaded. The unloaded pin weight is 1980lbs. So real world if I load the trailer with 2000lbs that would equal 13,575, 2000lbs seems like a lot to me but I am sure it is possible! Figuring a 25% pin weight would be @3400lbs. So an additional 900lb cushion for people, tools, hitch etc. seems plenty and I would still be under the axle and tire ratings. 25% seems high but for arguments sake I went high. YMMV 🙂

Any way you look at it far safer than the 2500HD which was a great truck!

Nice story. And your parting line is one that car salesmen LOVE to hear!
Now I'm gonna blow your mind. New Ram=nice truck. 2015 Chevy = nice truck.
What to YOU makes the Ram far safer than the Chevy you traded?
Your Chevy was/is identical to a 3500HD, save for stiffer rear springs.
Your Ram 3500 would be identical to a Ram 2500 except Ram changed the rear suspension 5 years ago to coils. Other wise same truck. For both brands, same frame, same power train, same brakes, Same tires and wheels, same axles. Actually the rear axle in your new ram is the same as the one in your Chevy.
Point being, the new truck is not inherently safer AT ALL than your old one with one exception. The rear suspension is stiffer, which can be accomplished for $200-500 with any number of easy, proven, bolt on suspension products.
Again, nice truck, but it's only "safer" in your mind....which is the most important part I suppose since you're the one driving it.

[4x4ord]

If you've already bought the truck you're better off to just forget it and be happy. We just hauled a load on an old (2004) Ram 3500 SRW diesel that overloaded the rear axle and tire rating by about 1000 lbs. The truck handled the load beautifully. I don't advocate that anyone should buy a truck that is rated to tow less than what they intend to use if for but on the other hand there is safety margin built into load ratings. If my truck is rated to handle a 3400 lb pin and I hook it up to a trailer that puts about 3500 lbs on the pin it is going to handle it beautiful. Another brand truck rated to handle 4200 lbs may handle my trailer better or it may handle it worse. Having excess rating doesn't mean much.

[Cummins12V98]

The RV does NOT stop gaining weight at the magical GVWR!!!

No the axles are not forward unless they are a triple axle.

[chiefcamper]

Just traded in a 2015 Chevy 2500HD which was overloaded carrying our 40' 5th Wheel but it did not break, we only towed it a few times before buying the new truck. The new truck is a 2018 Ram 3500HD with a 6.4L Hemi. Yellow sticker payload of 4323lbs, 7000lb rear axle.

I am not sure claims of a 4000lb pin weight are always true with today's 5th wheels where the trailer wheels are now more forward. My unloaded mfg weights are 11575lbs (yellow sticker) with a max of 13,980lbs loaded. The unloaded pin weight is 1980lbs. So real world if I load the trailer with 2000lbs that would equal 13,575, 2000lbs seems like a lot to me but I am sure it is possible! Figuring a 25% pin weight would be @3400lbs. So an additional 900lb cushion for people, tools, hitch etc. seems plenty and I would still be under the axle and tire ratings. 25% seems high but for arguments sake I went high. YMMV 🙂

Any way you look at it far safer than the 2500HD which was a great truck!

[Grit_dog]

Bowler, no it doesn’t make a significant difference between brands. Anyone who says one of the big 3 trucks is significantly more capable than the others, apples to apples, is full of it. Period.
Same goes for the “weight watchers “ who add up every item including the box of milk bones for the dog. You’re honestly not going to notice 1000lbs of trailer or cargo unless it’s all pin weight or all tail weight.
Remember everything designed in our litigious society is designed to accommodate or protect the lowest common denominator person that could get their hands on it.
If that’s not you, then you have some factor of safety, called a brain!

[mich800]

"Yes, I am asking if the extra margin I have between my loaded pin weight and the payload capacity will help the truck to tow better than if I had a Ford/Chevy where the loaded pin weight was close to but still below the max capacity (within 200 pounds)."

No

[MikeRP]

Sorry I got so windy.

[MikeRP]

So here’s my thoughts. 1). Can we all agree that Ford, Ram, and GM HD CC SWR trucks would tow the same weight well regardless of the GVWR? 300 lbs difference between payload on the Ram and Ford would be nothing for that fine Ford Truck, same for the Chevy.

So me looking at the numbers on with my Cedar Creek 34 IK. So really I’m not focused on the GVWR. I’m focused on the axle and tire weight ratings. Once I get a small extra diesel tank and my fifth wheel loaded up ~ 14500 lbs. I will be right around 3400 lbs on the rear.

I agree that an over 16000 lb fifth wheel should have a duel rear wheel setup. But I also believe that a fifth wheel under 16,000 lbs is SWR territory. These are not the trucks of the early 2000’s, they are very capable.

Plus I will be about 10% below my payload on my build sheet and probably nearly 20% below the max tire weight rating.

Now if this turns out to be untrue I’ll let ya know.

One thing about tire weight ratings. I have driven my Class C at max tire weight load rating for the last six years with no issues. I do have a very good TPMS and I’m mindful of my speed. I generally have no problem loading a good quality tire right to its max rating as manufacturers have a lot of leeway built into those ratings.

If I ever get where I don’t like what I’m seeing, I will go with RideRites on the rear of the truck similar to my Class C and I will put Rickson’s on the truck with 19.5 inch tires that have the same outside diameter as the Ram with 18 inch tires but they will be about to have nearly 10000 lbs on the rear for additional payload. But I will never go over 16,000 lbs with a SWR.

[MikeRP]

This is a good subject. I’d like to talk about a couple contrasts I observed while looking at new HD trucks recently.

The GVWR on a 2018 Ram 3500 CC SWR SB is 11700 lbs. FAWR is 6000lbs and RAWR is 7000lbs. Max tires ratings on rear is 7240 lbs (2) for both tires.

So the GVWR on a 2018 Ram CC SWR LB is 12300 lbs. Both LB and SB trucks have the same tires, axle weight ratings and brakes. So Ram moving the GVWR up for the long bed allows the payload to stay around 4000 lbs for their largest single wheel truck thus maintaining about a 300 lb to 600 lb advantage over Ford.

My particular truck with the Aisin and HO Cummins has a 3840 payload according to my vehicle build sheet on Ram’s web interface. It has a 3700 payload reading according to the door sticker and my weights at a CAT scale versus payload is 3400 lbs and my payload versus RAWR is 3820 lbs. The latter is closest to my build sheet and the RAWR. Wow that’s a lot of numbers.

The Ford that matches my truck (XLT SWR CC SB) has a 3400 lb payload on the sticker. My CAT scale weigh in included me 250 lbs and normal junk in the cab, full tank ofof fuel and my hard hat cover which is probably 75 lbs.

I bought a Ram over the Ford because I got a $6000 better deal.

[Wills6_4_Hemi]

My 2016 ram 3500 drw crew cab 4x4 long bed 6.4 hemi has 5970 lbs of payload. I will only ever use about half of it lol