Reinforcing frame extensions for additional 300lbs towing.

[tmaxx]

I am in the process of purchasing a 2003 Monaco (McKenzie) Rogue 20' RV with two slides and the Ford V10 E450 chasis. The hitch is rated for 3500lbs. We want to tow our 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid which is spec'd at 3800lbs. I know the Ford engine can pull the 5000lbs, but I am unsure about the chasis and hitch. On the Class C forum, someone suggested reinforcing the frame extensions to get the additional towing margin. Are there some guidelines on how to do this? If I go to a weld shop, would they know how to get this done?
Also, would I need to replace the current hitch, rated at 3500lbs with a 5000lb hitch?

Thanks.

[AndyW]

Right, but what I was working around, and what it appears the OP is trying to solve, is the motorhome manufacturer (not Ford) putting a 3500lb hitch on an e450 and then only rating it to tow 3500lbs.

The chassis is rated much higher than that by Ford. The only problem is that the RV manufacturer's work, specifically the frame extensions and hitch, are only designed for 3500lbs. So get that beefed up by someone who knows what they are doing, and you're all set to tow up to the chassis limits.

[Oldme]

AndyW wrote:
I think I started the thread OP is referring to. I took mine to a heavy truck shop, they put in two crossmembers, a 10k hitch, and re-did the frame extension welds. Said I should be good to tow up to the chassis limits structurally, but that rear axle weight or possible front/rear balance would become the limiting factors and to make sure I visited a scale with whatever I was intending to pull.

It's hard to get a definitive answer on the legality, but if I'm within the GCVW, axle weight, and receiver hitch limitations I think someone would have a difficult time making the case that I was negligent in any way. Vehicles get modified all the time for various uses.

You are correct that vehicles get modified and that IF you stay within you limits you are good to go.

The legal problems enter if modified and and you are OVER your
certified weight. Only a DOT certified upfitter that meets
Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS), can make changes
and re-certify the vehicle for a new legal limit.

Some view added springs as something that increases capacity
beyond what is certified by the builder. They then overload
beyond that the engineering certification is for. Law-suites
then become a circus if something happens.

Upfitters certified by manufacturers:
Ford
https://www.fordtoughtruck.com/UpfitterPage/SpecialtySearch.aspx
Dodge
http://m.dodge.com/en/business/upfits/?ref=bl
GM
http://www.gmfleet.com/specialty-vehicles/locate-manufacturer.html

Specialty
http://www.upfitters.com/

Standards for upfitters
http://www.ntea.com/content.aspx?id=9004

[AndyW]

I think I started the thread OP is referring to. I took mine to a heavy truck shop, they put in two crossmembers, a 10k hitch, and re-did the frame extension welds. Said I should be good to tow up to the chassis limits structurally, but that rear axle weight or possible front/rear balance would become the limiting factors and to make sure I visited a scale with whatever I was intending to pull.

It's hard to get a definitive answer on the legality, but if I'm within the GCVW, axle weight, and receiver hitch limitations I think someone would have a difficult time making the case that I was negligent in any way. Vehicles get modified all the time for various uses.

[wbwood]

In the OP's orginal post he said 20'...Obviously he meant 30' instead...

[Hikerdogs]

tmaxx wrote:

Executive wrote:
Make sure you have enough money in the bank for your tranny replacement.....Dennis

I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you implying that the transmission is not sufficient? All class c's that I have looked at so far (with the exception of the Rogue), with the V10 engine/E450 have been rated at 5000lbs. Are there different variations of transmission which can be used for heavier tow capacity?

While I can reinforce the frame extensions rather easily, I am stuck with the current transmission so this may be a deal breaker for me. Please clarify your statement.
Thanks.

To know the specifics of the transmission in your motorhome you'll have to get the number off the tag on the side of the transmission and stop in to a dealer or call the ford customer service line.

The transmission in an E450 may not be the same as the one in the F550 or the F53 chassis. The same number transmission (4R100) is used in everything from the F150 pickup to the F550. Depending on the application the internal clutch packs have more disks, the valve bodies have different shift points, and they have different sized external transmission coolers. The transmission computer control module may also have a somewhat different program.

I would check the specifics of the transmission before committing to reinforcing the hitch and/or frame. As for those that say "go ahead and do it", how many have actually gone through the process and if so how many miles have been put on the combination motorhome/towed vehicle since the modification. Also have there ben any problems with the motorhome.

It's easy to make a guess and say it can be done, however you're the one who will have to shell out the money for the modifications and potential problems down the road should they occur. I'm not saying it can't be done, what I am saying is be sure it will be successful before you do it. I would check with people in the business of making the changes and those who support your chassis before making the changes.

[Oldme]

sch911 wrote:
The only risk you have would be if something went wrong and you lost your toad. You may have some liability there due to the modifications. Don't think there's any way to upgrade the vehicle's ratings legally. But if you do it right I don't see this happening...

I agree.
Legalities if something happens would be the concern.
Only a certified Upfitter can change the ratings.

Mechanically a good welding shop could do it.

[Ivylog]

OK OP, how long is this 2003 Monaco (McKenzie) Rogue 20' ?
A V brace is two bars added from the frames to the receiver area and looking from the rear they forms a V. Since you are only putting less than 25 lbs of tongue weight on the hitch, you do not need to replace it, just strengthen it for the push/pull of towing the car by adding a V shaped brace.

[tmaxx]

Golden_HVAC wrote:
Hi,

The E-450 of that model year is Ford factory rated at about 22,000 pounds, and the transmission is strong enough at that weight The same transmission was rated at 30,000 GCVWR in the F-550 with a more powerful diesel engine.

The frame is good for the weight that you want to tow. How long is the frame extension? Normally a 20' RV will not have a frame extension at all. If the hitch is attached to the Ford factory frame, and not a extension, then Ford rates the towing ability around 10,000 pounds!

Good luck,

Fred.

Not sure the frame extension length. It's specs say the overall length is 29'6" long.

[tmaxx]

Ivylog wrote:
Any good welding shop will know what to do once they crawl under. On that short a MH the frame may not need anything. Since you are not putting any weight on the hitch a V brace from the frame to the center of your current hitch is all that's needed to increase it for towing 3800lbs.
What are you going to do for brakes on your car?

I've never heard of a V brace. I did a quick google search and it didn't help much. Is this V brace something which would be welded on the RV chasis from the frame to the hitch? Is it something you buy or is it custom made?

I didn't mention earlier, but I plan to tow with all four wheels on the road. As far as car brakes, I will need to add something for this but I haven't researched yet. Is there something in the round connector (near the hitch) which has a signal for brakes? I know somehow I need to get a brake signal from the RV to the vehicle being towed.

Thanks.

[sch911]

The only risk you have would be if something went wrong and you lost your toad. You may have some liability there due to the modifications. Don't think there's any way to upgrade the vehicle's ratings legally. But if you do it right I don't see this happening...

[tmaxx]

Executive wrote:
Make sure you have enough money in the bank for your tranny replacement.....Dennis

I don't understand what you are getting at. Are you implying that the transmission is not sufficient? All class c's that I have looked at so far (with the exception of the Rogue), with the V10 engine/E450 have been rated at 5000lbs. Are there different variations of transmission which can be used for heavier tow capacity?

While I can reinforce the frame extensions rather easily, I am stuck with the current transmission so this may be a deal breaker for me. Please clarify your statement.
Thanks.

[Golden_HVAC]

Hi,

The E-450 of that model year is Ford factory rated at about 22,000 pounds, and the transmission is strong enough at that weight The same transmission was rated at 30,000 GCVWR in the F-550 with a more powerful diesel engine.

The frame is good for the weight that you want to tow. How long is the frame extension? Normally a 20' RV will not have a frame extension at all. If the hitch is attached to the Ford factory frame, and not a extension, then Ford rates the towing ability around 10,000 pounds!

Good luck,

Fred.

[Executive45]

Make sure you have enough money in the bank for your tranny replacement.....Dennis

[mowermech]

I agree, any welding shop worthy of the name should be able to inspect the frame of the coach and determine what needs done, if anything.
Yes, you should replace the 3500 lb. capacity hitch with a 5000 lb. capacity one.