Using ethanol free gas.

[gazingm42]

I have a 2014 Ram 3500 w/ 6.4 Hemi. I have been using the pure gas which is 100% ethanol Free. While it more $$ I get around 4MPG in the city and about 6 MPG on the highway, your mileage may vary. So in the long run it cheaper per gallon but I have more power in the truck and don't have the issues that ethanol can caused long term.

Just curious on others if they used this while towing and what type
of results they have seen?

Thanks

[tpi]

I have a hard time believing these huge fuel economy hits from the ethanol additive. Wish it wasn't there, feel it does have slight fuel economy hit. I think what is posted above is extreme worst case scenarios. Would like to test but availability is issue. Also my gut reaction is the economy I'm getting is in line with the machinery involved.

What I do think is a common and large impact on fuel economy which isn't often mentioned is air density issues. Between elevation and warm summer temperatures the air resistance can be more than 25 percent lighter than cold dense air at sea level. On a non aerodynamic RV this can be a big deal. For info look at aircraft density altitude charts.

[JaxDad]

B.O. Plenty wrote:

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
E free gas will give you about 4 to 5% difference in mileage.

If anybody tells you appreciably more their math is wrong or their testing is flawed.

E gas will always give you more power because of the O2 and cooling effect it give your engine.

Totally agree! How can eliminating the 10% alcohol give you an additional 6 mpg on the highway..I'm gonna have to throw the BS flag on that one.

B.O.

Because that 10% ethanol accounts for about 3 points of octane and when the ethanol has absorbed 0.5% of water (to the entire E10 volume) the gasoline can no longer hold the ethanol in solution and the now 'pregnant' (water-laden) alcohol settles to the bottom of the tank.

You now have fuel tank of ~84 octane gas with some very water-laden alcohol laying on the bottom.

Do you really think going from 87 to 84 octane and with NO oxygenators in it is only going to give you a 4 or 5% loss in mileage?

Even big reputable sources like Road & Track magazine call 6 to 10% 'typical' and that's with fresh fuel and no other issues.

[mlts22]

Here in my neck of the woods, you can't get E0 at the pumps. If you want it, you have to have a fuel tank (likely an above ground tank, since it is exempt from a metric ton of regulations assuming non-commercial use), and a fuel supply company can sell you that.

[Horizon170]

There is a RaceTrac (sp) near me (Commerce, GA) and 100% gas is around $.85 more than E10. I use 100% in my Honda 2K and Weed eater only. No way at those prices is it cost effective to use 100% in my vehicle.
Marvin

[JIMNLIN]

We have a couple of Sinclair gas dealers who sell 100 % gas around here. Its 37 cents higher than E10.
I use the 100 percent in my 223 23 hp Grasshopper and GT1862 18 hp Cub Cadet.

I've used E85 and E10 and real gas in the wifes 5.3 1500 crew cab chevy 4x4 which can use E85. It takes several tanks of all gas to make the change over for accuracy. 100 percent gas gave another 1 to 1.5 mpg average over 5-6 tank refills.

[Atlee]

There should be no subsidy for ethanol gas in the first place. And it should be taxed at the same rate as regular gasoline.

If a new power source can't compete on it's on with out taxpayer money, or borrowed government money, it shouldn't exist.

When gasoline get too expensive, then alternate sources become more economically viable.

tatest wrote:
Here it might cost 10 cents to 40 cents more per gallon, at 30 cents it doesn't save me money in improved MPG. So I don't seek out the stations that have it. Lately about $2.40 for E10 or less, $2.70 for no ethanol. One of my vehicles is flex fuel, and I actually save money running E85 if the price is at least 60 cents lower, but I lately been finding that only in a couple of corn belt states that totally forego road taxes on E85. The Federal subsidy for ethanol has been shrinking, and may not much longer even cover the higher production costs.

I do buy it for my small engines, but all of those together don't use more than four gallons a year, so at twice as much it might be worth it to avoid equipment trouble on the tiny two-strokes.

[B_O__Plenty]

Turtle n Peeps wrote:
E free gas will give you about 4 to 5% difference in mileage.

If anybody tells you appreciably more their math is wrong or their testing is flawed.

E gas will always give you more power because of the O2 and cooling effect it give your engine.

Totally agree! How can eliminating the 10% alcohol give you an additional 6 mpg on the highway..I'm gonna have to throw the BS flag on that one.

B.O.

[colliehauler]

CavemanCharlie wrote:
All the gas in MN is E10. No matter what it says on the pump. If it says otherwise it's just to make you feel better. If you think you are getting better mileage using non-ethanol gas around here then you are just imagining it.

It's like someone taking a drug that they say makes them feel better. When in reality the doctor just gave them a placebo.

Where my seasonal site is at in MN they sell boat gas that is E-0.

[JaxDad]

CavemanCharlie wrote:
All the gas in MN is E10. No matter what it says on the pump. If it says otherwise it's just to make you feel better. If you think you are getting better mileage using non-ethanol gas around here then you are just imagining it.

It's like someone taking a drug that they say makes them feel better. When in reality the doctor just gave them a placebo.

Are you sure?

Pure Gas Website Minnesota Page

This website lists 469 gas stations in Minnesota that sell ethanol-free gas.

[CavemanCharlie]

All the gas in MN is E10. No matter what it says on the pump. If it says otherwise it's just to make you feel better. If you think you are getting better mileage using non-ethanol gas around here then you are just imagining it.

It's like someone taking a drug that they say makes them feel better. When in reality the doctor just gave them a placebo.

[JaxDad]

I'm not sure where you live, your profile doesn't show it, but in a lot of areas the reg's are such that they sell enough volume of regular and mid-grade gasolines being E10 that they cam sell premium as E0.

Since vehicles that require premium fuel are often in a class that doesn't tolerate fuel degradation well they try to keep it ethanol-free wherever possible.

[westend]

JaxDad wrote:

westend wrote:
So let me understand this, there were people who claimed that replacing 10% of their gas with Ethanol resulted in a 15% loss in mileage? This must have been a user calibrated event.

My only real experiment with alcohol and different fuels was driving a late model minivan. I rented this van and used E85 for a few tankfuls (maybe 5). I noticed a 10% loss in mileage compared to E10.

The big problem is water.

Before the transition to Ethanol the oxygenation was handled by the addition of MTBE to gasoline, this mixture does not absorb water in any material amount.

Ethanol on the other hand mixes quite readily with water and is in fact hygroscopic, it very aggressively absorbs water and holds it in suspension until it's saturated and just cannot absorb any more.

Despite very prevalent myths to the contrary, phase separation occurs very quickly under the right conditions, and even under just typical atmospheric conditions occurs in 90 days on average. This is caused by the ethanol just absorbing the humidity out of the air and condensation. If there is actual water present, like in the bottom of a storage tank, the ethanol quickly absorbs it.

At just 0.5% water entrainment reaches the point where the E10 mixture is no longer able to hold the water in solution. At this point the water-laden ethanol starts to fall out of solution and settle down out of the mixture. You would then have a large top layer of nearly pure gasoline, and a much smaller layer of very water-laden ethanol below that, then finally a smaller layer of pure water at the very bottom.

As the ethanol falls out the gasoline loses an important source (the ethanol) of it's octane. If you had this happen, 87 octane fuel would drop to approx. 84 octane.

So now you have a car running on non-oxygenated 84 octane fuel until it gets down to the very wet straight ethanol at the bottom of the tank.

Now this is an extreme example, but it only takes a little water to significantly affect performance.

Well that makes a lot of sense, I had not thought about the Octane level being modified.

On the other hand, I have run Premium in some of my vehicles (instead of Regular) and the mileage is just a bit better. Is Ethanol the only Octane booster in E10 gas?

[JaxDad]

westend wrote:
So let me understand this, there were people who claimed that replacing 10% of their gas with Ethanol resulted in a 15% loss in mileage? This must have been a user calibrated event.

My only real experiment with alcohol and different fuels was driving a late model minivan. I rented this van and used E85 for a few tankfuls (maybe 5). I noticed a 10% loss in mileage compared to E10.

The big problem is water.

Before the transition to Ethanol the oxygenation was handled by the addition of MTBE to gasoline, this mixture does not absorb water in any material amount.

Ethanol on the other hand mixes quite readily with water and is in fact hygroscopic, it very aggressively absorbs water and holds it in suspension until it's saturated and just cannot absorb any more.

Despite very prevalent myths to the contrary, phase separation occurs very quickly under the right conditions, and even under just typical atmospheric conditions occurs in 90 days on average. This is caused by the ethanol just absorbing the humidity out of the air and condensation. If there is actual water present, like in the bottom of a storage tank, the ethanol quickly absorbs it.

At just 0.5% water entrainment reaches the point where the E10 mixture is no longer able to hold the water in solution. At this point the water-laden ethanol starts to fall out of solution and settle down out of the mixture. You would then have a large top layer of nearly pure gasoline, and a much smaller layer of very water-laden ethanol below that, then finally a smaller layer of pure water at the very bottom.

As the ethanol falls out the gasoline loses an important source (the ethanol) of it's octane. If you had this happen, 87 octane fuel would drop to approx. 84 octane.

So now you have a car running on non-oxygenated 84 octane fuel until it gets down to the very wet straight ethanol at the bottom of the tank.

Now this is an extreme example, but it only takes a little water to significantly affect performance.

[westend]

JaxDad wrote:

westend wrote:
No one is losing 10% in mileage by using an E10 gas blend.

I have no reason to doubt the OP's results but some of his mileage differences may be due to the intrinsic construction of the engine and it's fuel management accessories and not absolutely due to the addition of alcohol.

Funny that. Gasbuddy.com held a poll on users mileage loses due to using E10 fuel. The largest group responding said they lost between 5% and 10%, the second largest group said they lost between 10% and 15%.

Then from the website of a little magazine called Road & Track I find ".... switch to E10 (gasoline cut 10 percent with ethanol), your mileage will drop. The big question is by how much. The Environmental Protection Agency says E10 lowers mileage approximately 3 percent, which would drop your mileage from 19.6 to 19.0 mpg. Instead you're citing a drop between 10.2 and 15.9 percent, which, while similar to some E10-induced losses we've heard of, does seem large. We typically hear of mileage drops in the 6- to nearly 10-percent range..."

So let me understand this, there were people who claimed that replacing 10% of their gas with Ethanol resulted in a 15% loss in mileage? This must have been a user calibrated event.

My only real experiment with alcohol and different fuels was driving a late model minivan. I rented this van and used E85 for a few tankfuls (maybe 5). I noticed a 10% loss in mileage compared to E10.

[JaxDad]

westend wrote:
No one is losing 10% in mileage by using an E10 gas blend.

I have no reason to doubt the OP's results but some of his mileage differences may be due to the intrinsic construction of the engine and it's fuel management accessories and not absolutely due to the addition of alcohol.

Funny that. Gasbuddy.com held a poll on users mileage loses due to using E10 fuel. The largest group responding said they lost between 5% and 10%, the second largest group said they lost between 10% and 15%.

Then from the website of a little magazine called Road & Track I find ".... switch to E10 (gasoline cut 10 percent with ethanol), your mileage will drop. The big question is by how much. The Environmental Protection Agency says E10 lowers mileage approximately 3 percent, which would drop your mileage from 19.6 to 19.0 mpg. Instead you're citing a drop between 10.2 and 15.9 percent, which, while similar to some E10-induced losses we've heard of, does seem large. We typically hear of mileage drops in the 6- to nearly 10-percent range..."