FOB keys and theft

[ajriding]

Keep those in a faraday bag or case when not in use. New vehicles only need the key close to the car, then when FOB is close the door will open and the push-button start will crank the engine and unlock the wheel.
Thieves can amplify your FOB signal (which always broadcast), and send it to your vehicle while you are away and just like that they are driving off.
Or they can clone your FOB signal and duplicate it.
Faraday bags will block the signal, and are around $10 on eBay.

[JaxDad]

One of my vehicles is a high end Benz with keyless go that I was told was ultra secure. Even the door locks are tied in, if you are carrying the key and just touch the door handle the doors unlock. When you park and walk away if there is nobody still inside the car based on the internal sensors, it senses the RFID chip is no longer there and locks the doors.

I had a tech in to do some work on our building’s keyless lock system, he mentioned my car and offered a credit card like looking RFID access card for myself that would BOTH open my office doors AND operate as a ‘car key’. To say I was skeptical was an understatement.

He pulled out a handheld device, put my key fob next to it and pushed a ‘read’ button, it beeped a conformation tone, he then held a credit card looking device, held it next to the handheld device and pushed the ‘copy’ button, it gave another confirmation beep.

Sure enough, with the card in my wallet I can go through all the locked doors in my building and operate my car just fine.

[ktmrfs]

fj12ryder wrote:

ktmrfs wrote:
since most cars built since the mid 90's have an RFID key a key copy is useless to start the car. To get a key that will start the car usually means showing registration that matches VIN number, proof of ownership, photo ID a signature and in many cases getting your picture taken and then waiting a day or so to get the key. And in the case of one of my vehicles, they key needs to be programmed to the vehicle either by the dealer or the owner IF the owner has TWO working keys. The programming sequence requires that at the start of the programming you insert one working key,
once that is recognized, it asks you to remove that key and insert a second key. If that is recognized THEN it will allow you to insert the new keys and program them to the vehicle.

So even if someone did manage to get a key to that vehicle of mine, it still wouldn't be programmed and would be useless.

not a very likely way to get a key for a car anymore.

All it took to get a new key made for my 2015 car was about 15 minutes at a key store. Not a big deal if you have the key in hand.

My 97 and 2015 cars with keys are RFID and on both shops and dealers require proof of ownership, and on the 2015 as mentioned above a key from a store even if they copy a key will NOT start the car until it is programmed to the car, which requires at least two working keys or the dealer to program. So someone who trys to copy my keys is SOL, not completely programmed.

On the 97 it is a very rare key shop that can make a working key, dealer can get them overnight and at a reasonable price for a plain non fob key, $15 or so. But they won't order w/o the required proof of ownership they then keep on file and needs to go with the fax for the key order.

I'm suprised that a 2015 car has a key system than can be cut and programmed at a key store w/o additional steps to complete the programming unless they also require and keep info to show proof of ownership.

My 2019 has a keyless go, another story. Haven't tried to get a spare keyless go fob, but the spare key to open the doors etc. is one key shops will make.

[fj12ryder]

ktmrfs wrote:
since most cars built since the mid 90's have an RFID key a key copy is useless to start the car. To get a key that will start the car usually means showing registration that matches VIN number, proof of ownership, photo ID a signature and in many cases getting your picture taken and then waiting a day or so to get the key. And in the case of one of my vehicles, they key needs to be programmed to the vehicle either by the dealer or the owner IF the owner has TWO working keys. The programming sequence requires that at the start of the programming you insert one working key,
once that is recognized, it asks you to remove that key and insert a second key. If that is recognized THEN it will allow you to insert the new keys and program them to the vehicle.

So even if someone did manage to get a key to that vehicle of mine, it still wouldn't be programmed and would be useless.

not a very likely way to get a key for a car anymore.

All it took to get a new key made for my 2015 car was about 15 minutes at a key store. Not a big deal if you have the key in hand.

[ktmrfs]

wa8yxm wrote:

Bobbo wrote:
A key, they have to actually get possession of to copy its impression. So, yes, a key is much safer because it is much more difficult to duplicate.

Ever watch a TV show where the rich couple goes out to dinner. The Parking valet copies their house key and address. His henchmen visit the house and all is gone?

Takes only a couple minutes for the valet to copy the key.
Steal the car later.

since most cars built since the mid 90's have an RFID key a key copy is useless to start the car. To get a key that will start the car usually means showing registration that matches VIN number, proof of ownership, photo ID a signature and in many cases getting your picture taken and then waiting a day or so to get the key. And in the case of one of my vehicles, they key needs to be programmed to the vehicle either by the dealer or the owner IF the owner has TWO working keys. The programming sequence requires that at the start of the programming you insert one working key,
once that is recognized, it asks you to remove that key and insert a second key. If that is recognized THEN it will allow you to insert the new keys and program them to the vehicle.

So even if someone did manage to get a key to that vehicle of mine, it still wouldn't be programmed and would be useless.

not a very likely way to get a key for a car anymore.

[wa8yxm]

Bobbo wrote:
A key, they have to actually get possession of to copy its impression. So, yes, a key is much safer because it is much more difficult to duplicate.

Ever watch a TV show where the rich couple goes out to dinner. The Parking valet copies their house key and address. His henchmen visit the house and all is gone?

Takes only a couple minutes for the valet to copy the key.
Steal the car later.

[ktmrfs]

Ron3rd wrote:

ajriding wrote:
Keep those in a faraday bag or case when not in use. New vehicles only need the key close to the car, then when FOB is close the door will open and the push-button start will crank the engine and unlock the wheel.
Thieves can amplify your FOB signal (which always broadcast), and send it to your vehicle while you are away and just like that they are driving off.
Or they can clone your FOB signal and duplicate it.
Faraday bags will block the signal, and are around $10 on eBay.

Good advice. Lots of YouTube videos on the topic

I ran out of fingers counting the misleading and false statement in the above.

[Ron3rd]

ajriding wrote:
Keep those in a faraday bag or case when not in use. New vehicles only need the key close to the car, then when FOB is close the door will open and the push-button start will crank the engine and unlock the wheel.
Thieves can amplify your FOB signal (which always broadcast), and send it to your vehicle while you are away and just like that they are driving off.
Or they can clone your FOB signal and duplicate it.
Faraday bags will block the signal, and are around $10 on eBay.

Good advice. Lots of YouTube videos on the topic

[Retired_JSO]

Keep good insurance and let the hair go with the hide!

[Grit_dog]

ajriding wrote:
all you people talking about tinfoil hats, just dont do anything. Let them steal yours not mine.

But I could steal your truck with a coat hangar and a screwdriver and the only thing I'd break is the ignition switch....

[Wishbone51]

wing_zealot wrote:
If your going to steal the keys why would you bother putting them back - you got the car which was the original intent.

I didn't even realize that someone else brought this up.. I only read page one.

Exactly, regarding why steal it and put it back. Just mentioning that it's not completely infallible, but still pretty darn good.

[wing_zealot]

Wishbone51 wrote:
Any good newer one will have a rotating code. The next code used is based on a secret value that is embedded in the device itself. This is a two-way device, so the receiver has to send an acknowledgement back so they can both go to the next code.

Once you record it, it is too late to use.

One way to break hack it is to steal the keyfob, press the button out of "earshot" of the car, and record the code. Since it was never received and acknowledged, this code is still valid for one time use. They can put the key back, break into the car, and the owner would never suspect how they got in.

If your going to steal the keys why would you bother putting them back - you got the car which was the original intent.

[Wishbone51]

Any good newer one will have a rotating code. The next code used is based on a secret value that is embedded in the device itself. This is a two-way device, so the receiver has to send an acknowledgement back so they can both go to the next code.

Once you record it, it is too late to use.

One way to break hack it is to steal the keyfob, press the button out of "earshot" of the car, and record the code. Since it was never received and acknowledged, this code is still valid for one time use. They can put the key back, break into the car, and the owner would never suspect how they got in.

[janer315]

Thanks for letting me about the Faraday bag! I used many fobs for my apartment and cars and I believe that some fobs are much secure e.g. HID, RFID, etc but these are expensive. Thanks for Minute Fob they brought new technology and now I can make duplicate fobs at my home the price is negotiable for this product but you may contact them at 212-944-1811 to know about the prices.

[otrfun]

ktmrfs wrote:

otrfun wrote:

JaxDad wrote:
. . . I was shocked to discover this when I dropped my vehicle off for service work at the dealership, I forgot to put the key through the little depository slot. I stopped in the next morning to bring them the key it was rather surprised that my vehicle was already in the shop and on the hoist being worked on. The service advisor said it merely took them an extra 30 seconds to use their computer to bypass the key system entirely.

As the old saying goes, locks only stop on his people, they barely slow down a thief.

If the dealers have this technology, no doubt this same technology is readily available on the black market. Glad our new 2020 Camry has a real metal key along with the FOB chip. Two layers of security. Dealer would have no choice, but to call us. The metal key for our Camry looks like it was fabricated with a CNC machine--very different from a standard key. No doubt it can be copied by some locksmiths. However, the fact several locksmiths in our area couldn't copy it says something.

real key with a chip and keyless go rely on the same system to start the car, a very low power rolling code RFID. a real key adds one more layer of protection, but the keyless go fob's really have TWO separate systems. First one allows the car to be locked, unlocked, sometimes remote started etc. with a reasonably powerful RF signal. But intercepting and controlling that alone will NOT repeat NOT allow one to drive car away. That relies on the SECOND system in the FOB or key a very low power rolling code system and a remote RFID chip. In most cases even if the fob is hanging out the car window the car won't start. Same if the fob is in your jacket in the backseat.

Dealers may have a way to over ride the lack of RFID with the dealer diagnostics, but those systems are expensive and controlled.

Once rolling codes were added to garage door openers, the drive by open the garage door issue basically disappeared.

All that said, Personally I'm not a real fan of keyless go. 3 cars and a truck, 1 with keyless go, others with just regular keys with RFID chips. The keyless go FOB is noticeably larger than the onther remotes, and doesn't add any functions that the other remotes offer. I'd rather drive down the road with the key in the ignition than sitting in my pocket. Security wise Keyless go IMHO has a slight downside in security, lacking the need for a real key, but that is minor with the RFID rolling code security.

As for a duplicate key for your Camry. Did the locksmith say he couldn't cut a key or he couldn't PROGRAM a key? Local locksmiths here and even some ACE hardware stores have no problem cutting a key to match but can't PROGRAM the key.

As long as you have a vehicle with a RFID key, I'd advise going to the dealer and getting a couple of spare keys.

Good to know the keyless FOBs have rolling codes as a 2nd layer of security.

Ref your question about duplicate keys, I contacted two of the more popular locksmiths in town ref getting a 3rd, backup key/FOB made for our '20 Camry. Neither could copy our 2020 Camry key nor program a new FOB. The key is different from a standard tumbler key. It's basically a flat, rectangular block of steel with each flat side (not the edge) CNC'd with a unique jagged pattern.

We ended up purchasing a precut valet-type key/FOB (looks like standard key---no function buttons) from Toyota for use as an emergency key in event of a lock-out or loss while we're away from home. Couldn't get my copy of Techstream to work with the new Camry, so I had to have the new key/FOB programmed at the dealer. When we owned our 2012 Tundra, I was able to purchase a blank key, have it cut by a locksmith, then program it myself using Techstream.

[ktmrfs]

otrfun wrote:

JaxDad wrote:
. . . I was shocked to discover this when I dropped my vehicle off for service work at the dealership, I forgot to put the key through the little depository slot. I stopped in the next morning to bring them the key it was rather surprised that my vehicle was already in the shop and on the hoist being worked on. The service advisor said it merely took them an extra 30 seconds to use their computer to bypass the key system entirely.

As the old saying goes, locks only stop on his people, they barely slow down a thief.

If the dealers have this technology, no doubt this same technology is readily available on the black market. Glad our new 2020 Camry has a real metal key along with the FOB chip. Two layers of security. Dealer would have no choice, but to call us. The metal key for our Camry looks like it was fabricated with a CNC machine--very different from a standard key. No doubt it can be copied by some locksmiths. However, the fact several locksmiths in our area couldn't copy it says something.

real key with a chip and keyless go rely on the same system to start the car, a very low power rolling code RFID. a real key adds one more layer of protection, but the keyless go fob's really have TWO separate systems. First one allows the car to be locked, unlocked, sometimes remote started etc. with a reasonably powerful RF signal. But intercepting and controlling that alone will NOT repeat NOT allow one to drive car away. That relies on the SECOND system in the FOB or key a very low power rolling code system and a remote RFID chip. In most cases even if the fob is hanging out the car window the car won't start. Same if the fob is in your jacket in the backseat.

Dealers may have a way to over ride the lack of RFID with the dealer diagnostics, but those systems are expensive and controlled.

Once rolling codes were added to garage door openers, the drive by open the garage door issue basically disappeared.

All that said, Personally I'm not a real fan of keyless go. 3 cars and a truck, 1 with keyless go, others with just regular keys with RFID chips. The keyless go FOB is noticeably larger than the onther remotes, and doesn't add any functions that the other remotes offer. I'd rather drive down the road with the key in the ignition than sitting in my pocket. Security wise Keyless go IMHO has a slight downside in security, lacking the need for a real key, but that is minor with the RFID rolling code security.

As for a duplicate key for your Camry. Did the locksmith say he couldn't cut a key or he couldn't PROGRAM a key? Local locksmiths here and even some ACE hardware stores have no problem cutting a key to match but can't PROGRAM the key.

As long as you have a vehicle with a RFID key, I'd advise going to the dealer and getting a couple of spare keys.