If I went to a Progressive Dynamics Converter.......

[Vintage465]

So I'm always looking to my next upgrade for my charging of the 4-6v GC batteries. Knowing that the WFCO converter my rig came with is next to useless on it's own, add to that the fact that there is 18' of #8 wire to drop the theoretical charging voltage from a possible 14.4 to 13.4.

If I went to a Progressive Dynamics retrofit I'd be re-conductoring to #1 or #2 wire from the converter to the batteries. I was reading that their charging profile is to pack 14.4 or 14.6 volts to 90% of the charge. Then somewhat float it up to 100% with 13.5-ish volts? To me this doesn't really seem like that great of "wizardry" even though it's called the charge wizard.

For those of you who've installed them, how well does the wizardry work? I would only be using it when there isn't enough sunlight to get at least 90% with my solar. When we were at the Mojave Desert for Thanksgiving this last year I could have used it one day to bring my batteries to 100%

Thoughts?

Thanks,

[Vintage465]

babock wrote:
You just use a transition post to change the size of wire right before the converter. Not a big deal. Run 1/0 wire from the battery to the post and 4AWG or 6AWG from the post to the convertor for the last foot.

That's what I was thinking.......

[babock]

You just use a transition post to change the size of wire right before the converter. Not a big deal. Run 1/0 wire from the battery to the post and 4AWG or 6AWG from the post to the convertor for the last foot.

[mchero]

Lwiddis wrote:
Doesn’t sound like much of an upgrade for a bunch of money and time.

Sounds like a FANTASTIC upgrade!

I purchased a 93 Pace Arrow Diesel that had 4 toasted 6v GC batteries. Canned the charger and went with a Progressive Dynamics 60aml model with the charge wizard.
If your not 100% sure about your house batteries replace them!
I installed the PD and purchased 4 Sams Club GC 6 volters.
Make absolutely sure you cables are 100%. I got 12 years off that set of batteries!

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Alternator only in danger if it has a voltage regulator with remote sensing. All of my systems have intergral sensing.

Load-dump causes rectifiers to fail not running with correct voltage reference. Running with batteries cut out from voltage regulator sense broken or switched off can cause deadly AC voltage. Hundreds of volts and several dozens of potential amperage within the cut output wiring. Yes I mean deadly.

[Mobilesport]

.

[landyacht318]

Yep, not going to turn battery switch off with engine running.
Back when I first got the hall effect dash ammeter I had the sensor measuring total alternator output, not like today where it islocated to measure amps into or out of battery. One day I was heavily discharged and driving intentionally keeping rpms up, and the 140 amp circuit breaker tripped after ~5 minutes of 65 to 120 alternator amps. This rather extreme load dump did not fry the diodes in the alternator and it worked fine for 4 more years once I reset the CB.

The regular parallel OEM charge circuit was disconnected for measuring the total alternator output so it was a true load dump. My meter is only rated for 100 amps, if I go over 100 amps it reads
---.-.

It was reading that at 14.1v+ at 2200 engine rpm when it went to -20 amps when the CB tripped well below its rating of 140 amps.

I bet the observation of slight discharging at float with heavy dc loads running, can be repeated without engine running. Put a 25 amp load on dc system with converter holding battery fully charged battery at 'perfect' prescribed float voltage, and the battery will still partially feed some of that 25 amp load and not remain at 100%SOC, but fall to some level slightly below that.

As I said its not much, and not really consequential, at least to me. Just an observation.

The way my rig is wired, my 1/2/both/OFF LOAD switch, is closer to my 1/2/both/OFF ignition switch, than it is to my battery and on equally thick cable, and no other wires, but the voltage sense line, goes to the battery terminals. No loads bypass the Ignition Switch or the LOAD switch to go directly to the battery. I doubt the voltage sense line's current is even measurable with any tools at my disposal, and the 20awg I am now using for it is way overkill.

My dashboard calibrate-able 00.00x voltmeter now has 20awg ground and voltage sense wires going to the battery itself well the ground still goes to my shunt's buss bar, but until recently, took a ground much more closely to the voltmeter. I employ a 10 turn potentiometer to adjust the alternator's voltage regulator, at a steady rpm it is pretty easy to dial battery voltage in to the hundredth of a volt, most of the time, exceptions being when it is near full and it bounces around a few hundredths easier.

Dash hall effect ammeter has drifted just recently, reading high, but this AGM continuing to taper to 0.0x amps at absorption or float when full is a constant. Same as on my previous NSB-27m until ~8 months before I removed it from the rig and relegated it to light cycling duty in the workshop. at end of Rv duty Amps would never taper to 0.4 and would bottom out over 4.0 amps then start rising again going as high as 13 amps if I was not there to lower voltage from 14.7v.
I kept using it until it struggled to start my engine fully charged on a warm day with a warm engine. Voltage retention on regular overnight discharges were as good as ever and it still is impressive in workshop in this regard. If I were to judge this battery's health
only by the voltage retainment on regular overnight discharges, I would be unaware of its decline. Which is surprising and unexpected, and impressive really.

Since being relegated to workshop and light cycling and a 100 watt panel facing south being the main recharging source, the amps will taper to ~1.4 before bottoming out and then rising when held at absorption, and improvement from when it was taken from my rig, where it was discharged deeper regularly.

Drifted far from the PD converter topic, apologies.

[BFL13]

pianotuna wrote:
BFL13,

Do not run an alternator without a battery. The diodes die if you do.

My point was whether he has some load right off the battery that the alternator is not taking care of, which would not happen in an RV set-up for the house side.

LY has his battery doing both engine and house. Might explain what he is seeing, don't know.

[pianotuna]

BFL13,

Do not run an alternator without a battery. The diodes die if you do.

[BFL13]

LY, in an RV, the story is that the converter supplies loads first and the battery gets what's left over. You can run the RV with no battery at all.

In your rig, can the alternator run it all when driving down the road with no battery at all?

[MEXICOWANDERER]

Destranding
Solder the shaved tips. If the perfect shape is round with a set screw holding the cable file the soldered tip to fit the hole exactly. The solder should solidify far enough up the cable to make the tip joinery one solid mass.

The cable must be supported two inches or so distant from the tip to reduce tension on the device's copper terminals. The gain in conductivity of such a junction when done correctly is around 12%. Verified by 4-terminal milliometer

[landyacht318]

Having a digital Ammeter on my dashboard showing amps into and out of the battery, and a temp sensor on the battery, and being able to spin a dial and change that voltage, is incredibly useful not ony for observation and state of charge/health of abtteries, but a great learning tool as well. The amperage accepted at absorption voltage where known 'full charge' should occur on AGMs is also convenient

My AGM says it is is full when it accepts 0.5 amps or less at 14.7v, but say at this point I lower voltage to 13.6v, and leave it there for a few more hours with no significant DC loads on the system, amperage tapers to zero, well 0.0x amps, below my ability to measure. If at this point I reboost it to 14.7v amperage tapers to 0.0x quickly again, well below that 0.5amp threshold of 'full'. so it seems while 0.5 amps at 14.7v is considered full, there is a secondary 'full' at 0.0x amps, at least while the battery is still healthy.

When driving, I have noticed if I leave it at 13.6v once fully charged, and at night with headlights on and perhaps 20 to 25 amps of total DC load,( my engine requires 12.2 amps at 2K rpm to run ignition and fuel pump, not including any field current to alternator) then the battery actually discharges slightly at 13.6v, registering 0.2 to 0.4 amps flowing from the battery, and I must get closer to 13.9v to prevent it from discharging he colder the temp the higher the voltage must be to prevent it discharging. But turn off the headlamps and blowermotor and 13.6v back to a 12 to 15 amp total dc load on alternator, is adequate to hold it full even with battery temps colder than 77f.
The reblasting to 14.7v after a few hours of my ammeter registering - 0.2 to 0.4 amps at the recommednded float voltage, shows than indeed the ammeter was right, amps were flowing out of my battery at the correct float voltage, and some period of time at 14.7v is required to return amperage acceptance below the 0.5 amp threshold considered full.

I do compensate for battery temperature.

So it seems the battery must be held above its normal float voltage in order to remain full, when there is a significant DC load on the system, to keep the amps flowing from only the alternator, and not some from the battery to help support that load.

It's not like the battery is providing much during this 'event', and I don;t know how a flooded battery compares, or other brands of AGM, only that I've witnessed it occur more than once, more than a dozen times, with two different Northstar AGMS in two different cross country road trips, California to Florida and back, twice subsequent Xmas seasons. It's easily repeatable, and with a 38 hour drive, not much else to do and I try to complete as much driving at night as I can for traffic and less wind reasons.

As such I only really lower my alternator's voltage below 13.8v, during the day when I know the battery is full and I want the solar to be powering as much of the electrical load as I can get it to, and this requires I set alternator voltage to below the float voltage setpoint of my solar controller, 13.6v.

Anyway, its not really consequential either way, but I thought it interesting that the recommended float voltage held, would still allow some slight discharging when there are significant dc loads on the system, of ~ 25 amps but not when they are under ~15. None of this would be possible without manually adjustable voltage, or the tools to display amps in out at what voltage I choose, and there is certainly ignorance in bliss and bliss in ignorance.

I know these data and observations fly in the face of accepted 'wisdom' regarding battery charging, at least that which one reads on forums like this, and no doubt despite my Speedometer saying I am doing 60mph, verified with GPS, and mile markers and a stop watch, someone will claim I am wrong and only doing 55. I tend to doubt anything written by them forever after, and question much conventional widespread 'knowledge' which is often just oft repeated/parrotted incorrect, or inaccurate opinions, shouted with an authority they actually lack.

[pianotuna]

landyacht318,

Great posts!

I'm back to low amperage slow charging as I'm part time now. Details of the system are in my signature.

I did notice an anomaly as I traveled north from Florida.

In Florida, with voltage and a temperature probe on the battery bank, the rate of charge would be 0 volts.

As I came north, to colder temperatures, that number went up--and this morning after being plugged in for 13 hours, charging rate was about 8 amps. Ambient temperatures was 3 F (-16 c).

I deliberately use the inverter to cook during the day--as I knew I would have shore power overnight.

I'm starting to wonder if I should bump up the voltage on the Magnum.

Alas I did not note the charging voltage in Florida--or along the route. I guess I missed an opportunity to "tweak" things.

[landyacht318]

I hate generators enough that I don't have one, but my rig is just a DIY class B and built around my specific needs and if I wanted/needed one I would have to device some new way of carrying it, so I'd rather not need it.

Reaching Absorption at the battery terminals ASAP, is how fastest possible recharging is accomplished.

The battery acceptance ability itself plays a huge part in this, and the health of the battery(s) is a big part of how much amperage it takes to instantly reach absorption voltage, and for how long it can accept high amperage while it tapers towards full.
Health of the battery is directly related to how often it has been brought back to 100% state of charge, however quickly.

Generator charging, Max SOC% reached in minimum time is about a high amp charging source which can quickly bring the battery to its temperature compensated absorption voltage. I call it quench charging, and My Specific 103AH AGM-31 battery seems to love it.

Its only a few months old, but 134 amps was recently not enough to instantly bring it to 14.7v from ~ 40% state of charge, and I tripped a circuit breaker and slightly melted the head of a 12 awg 25' extension cord in the process. I had to settle for a 'peasly' 94 amps afterwards which then took a few more minutes before hitting 14.7 at which point amps tapered, and pretty quickly tapered.

I'll be adding a second separately regulated alternator( i use a manual adjustable external voltage regulators in the not too distant future, its the only way I will be able to establish what 'Quench amperage' is on this battery as a 94 and a 40 amp charging sources in parallel, are not enough.

A well depleted 18Ah chinese AGM battery(UPG UB`12180) spiked at 38.3 amps and 5 seconds later was accepting 32 amps@14.7v and 5 minutes later 25 amps.

One of the boat guys found that charging an AGM to full, with huge amperage sources only cut 12 or 20 minutes off the total ~5.5 hour time to reach true 100% SOC, but huge recharging amperages for shorter periods were able to achieve much higher states of charge, and its always better to begin the next discharge from as high a state of charge as possible. If achieved early in the day, and if one has solar to finish off the process, can equate to happy long lived daily deep cycling lead acid batteries.

https://marinehowto.com/how-fast-can-an-agm-battery-be-charged/

I don't know the current Powermax adjustable voltage lineup like BFL-13 does, but one of these with short fat cables to battery which maxes out the generator's ability for the elevation, is how to achieve as high a state of charge as possible in minimum amount of generator run time.

POwerfactor correction comes into it. The PD9280 requires a 20 amp receptacle whereas the 100 amp PFC powermax can run on a 15 amp outlet, but maxes it out, or nearly so.

My mains charger is a modified Meanwell rsp-500-15 which is PFC, capable of 40 amps at any DC voltage between 13.11 and 19.23v, the 100 amp adjustable voltage Powermax I have in my workshop which maxes out at 94 amps and as high as 15.5v under lighter loads, is not exactly mine, and is an older model no longer offered.

I've got a 50 amp 'Ideal diode' on the Meanwell's output, which only drops 0.04v at 40 amps.

I'm considering getting another MW, as it will fit my available space easily, where the Powermax never could, and 'quench amperage' is outside my ability to attain via plug in charger anyway.
I used to parallel my MW with a 25 amp Schumacher 'smart' charger without the Diode, without issue, and I've been using the modified MW since September 2014 as my main charger/ converter/floater/portable charging source, and its got thousands of hours on it and I credit it to the exceptional lifespan of my Previous AGM battery, and really any battery I have been tasked with keeping alive for as long as possible.

[time2roll]

If it was your main charging I might be a bit more concerned but you mention solar should do most of the heavy lifting. If plugged in you have tons of time so no worries there either. OK on Generator you might lose 10 amps the first hour so you might have to extend the run time 15 minutes. Would seem to be OK to me for infrequent use.