Lifeline Battery Recovery experiences?

[Smitty77]

I had a thread about our Magnum MS2812 going into Fault code mode overnight while boon docking. Posted under Magnum because I first thought I may have had a problem with my program parameters, and possibly a weak/going out circuit board(s), after a lightening outage at a park last year.

Looks like I have Lifeline Batteries that have grown weak on me. These are 5 years old/usage X's 4 L16's.

I monitored the batteries during the night, via Magnum remote panel. SOC remained good, based upon AH's out, slowly drifting down to 85% SOC around 5:45AM. Full Bank Voltage down to 11.3V, current AH draw of 17.0 - 17.4 AH's. (These are under load reported Voltages on the remote.)

As I watched, with the same 17.0 - 17.4 AH's draw, the reported under load Voltage started to drop .1 and sometimes .2V, over 4 minute period down to 10.3V.

I took measurements at the battery with Multi Meter. 10.29 - 10.31V. I did still cable connected measurements of each battery and recorded 6.15V / 5.91V / 4.5V / 4.14V.

During the day, I brought the bank up to a full charge. Then afterward's did two back to back four hour Conditioning/Equalizing.

(Note: When I bought the batteries in Jan, 2013. The Lifeline Tech Manual I read, Rev C, said to only Condition the batteries if noticeable capacity was lost. I note that the current Rev E states that Conditioning every 2-4 weeks, maybe be the right thing to do under certain circumstances. (Talking to a boating buddy on the phone yesterday, he said he knows he read that same paragraph in Rev D too. But he could not recall if it was in Rev C(?) and I had just missed it.)

I only mention this Tech Manual here, because until late December of 2017, I'd never Condition this set of batteries, and that was only a four hour Conditioning, via the MS2812.

======

OK, long background to get to my question.

If I find after these Conditioning's that the battery capacity is still not healthy. Would taking the batteries into a shop that Lifeline recommends for Deep Discharge Recovery process provide any chance of further restoring the weaker batteries?

Has anyone had experiences with Lifeline Deep Discharge Recovery process?

Would like to get another year or two out of this bank of batteries. May even jump back to only the two best batteries and run with 400AH's if needed, to get a few more years out of it. (Even with the Samsung fridge, we could turn the Inverter off for few hours of a time during the night, to accommodate a half size bank of what we're used to running on.)

Info sharing, and opinions most welcomed:)!

Best to all,
Smitty

[BFL13]

IMO the OP should not be beating himself up over all this. He did a reasonable amount of "due diligence" and it still all went to poop. IMO he has a right to be annoyed.

I might be wrong, but I am suspecting there is something wrong with the whole installation with two monitors and all that. Can't be sure without seeing it all. In any case the OP should get extra points for coming here, to the right place! 🙂

[brulaz]

CA Traveler wrote:

...
The Magnum uses the traditional charging algorithm. At the end of bulk when the amps start to taper it enters absorb and the voltage stats to taper.

"Traditional" ?

I always thought that the traditional bulk/absorb charging algorithm was constant current / constant voltage ?

Which is the same as when using most power supplies, like the Meanwell: Max current until the voltage set point is reached, followed by constant voltage and declining current afterwards.

Is a tapering V during absorb that common in chargers? I know my Rogue Solar MPPT charger doesn't do it. Don't recall my Progressive Dynamics converter/charger doing it ...

[Itinerant1]

ME-BMK to receive the battery monitor
that includes the 500A/50mv DC shunt.
Whizbang appears to be the same size.

[BFL13]

You only need one monitor, but do check the shunt(s) for what the monitors "see". Not sure about sharing shunts. Trimetric has a choice of 500 amp or 100 amp shunt. 500a is needed if you will be running bigger 120v items with an inverter. The size of shunt also affects the readings on the display. One decimal place voltage with the 500 and two with the 100 ISTR.

What amp size shunt is specified for the Magnum and what size for the Whizbang? If they are sharing a shunt, is it the right size for both?

[Itinerant1]

GordonThree wrote:
I don't believe there's any way to override the Magnum's charging algorithm and force a constant voltage output like you can with a standard power supply.

He's using the Me-Arc50, in the setup section there is a "CC/CV" or "custom battery" which allows for more adjustability in setting.
If you have the manual it's page 27 that begins the explanation.

[Smitty77]

Cup of coffee vs sunset fortification, and not surprising - everything seems to be focusing thru the fog.

I read all the posts, a few required reading multiple times. I chuckled at one point, as I again confirmed that what I thought I needed to know and thought I knew - was not what I need to know:)! I feel like I entered "The Adventures of Buckaroo Banzai Across the 8th Dimension!"...

THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR POSTS AND KNOWLEDGE/INFO SHARING.

Before going any further, I reflected on what I had done (Vs what I should have done.) in regards to the care of this bank of Lifeline's:

-In 5 years, they've lived on the top 25% of discharge, remaining at I believed 75% + or - 5% of SOC the bulk of their life. (And when I felt I was properly, fully, charged (Which I may not have been.) - I have reset the AH's in relation to SOC calculation. Probably have done this 6-7 times over this 5 year period.)

-I have let them Float/Rest/Float for months at a time while in storage, and or traveling from shore power to shore power. This vs exercising them down, and back up.

-I admit to not looking at Voltage, using SOC % as my way of monitoring battery condition.

-I seem to have been abusing my battery from ignorance, where as I thought I had been babying them by living on the top 25% of the battery size, and keeping the in constant charge.

In conclusion as far as the condition of this bank of batteries. Yep, low probability of recovering them. Sure, I'll try to get more time out of them via Conditioning, and still may take them into a shop for Professional Recovery process that Lifeline has in their Tech Manual - but from what I read here, and on some other Google returned threads, the Horse Amps are out of the corral:)!

Moving forward I see some basic baby steps for Smitty:
-Improve basic's of battery management and care knowledge level
-Decide between another bank of 800AH's of Lifeline L16's. - or - A bank of Lithium.
-If I go the Lifeline AGM bank again. I'll add quick disconnects of the full bank, as well as being able to A/B split the bank. Both for easier readings 'at rest' and for splitting up the charge duty into shifts and or multiple chargers.
-If I go the Lithium way, which is what I thought I would do when this bank needed replacement. (Mostly for faster recharge times off of solar, and less overall weight to be carried.) That will add another set of learning skills for Lithium based battery management and care.
(I'm retired, and all of this back to school stuff - will keep me off the streets!).

I also need to build up my arsenal of diagnostic tools and gizmo's. Have some stuff, but probably not the right stuff, or all that I should.

One of the things I'll do today, is trace the Magnum and MidNite power feeds to the house bank. I did not install these, I worked with the Tech who did the install of this equipment. And the best of my knowledge, I have one Shunt of which both the Magnum charger and MidNite Controller are feeding thru as The Gateway to the house bank. So I again believe both of these system's are seeing/sourced from the same data. I also want to review the settings I did when we added the WhzBngJr, and I set up Finishing Amp to taper off the Controller feedback. (I've left both of these charge sources on together, for the bulk of the last 4 1/2 years. When I added the WhzBngJr to the mix, my intent was to have the MidNite Controller shut down sending a charge earlier then just set Bulk/Absorb time parameters. That is what I thought I was doing with Finishing Amp settings.

As I learn more, or think I've learned more. I'll bounce follow on questions.

Thanks again,
Smitty

[GordonThree]

I don't believe there's any way to override the Magnum's charging algorithm and force a constant voltage output like you can with a standard power supply.

[CA_Traveler]

"It's time to put the Magnum on the Hot Seat to see if it has the capability to charge your battery bank at bulk voltage recommendation of the Lifeline (14.40 volts) continuously all the way to the point where amperage will decay to 4.0 amps at 14.40 volts. There is no maybe's or it should's allowed. Either the charger inverter will do it or it won't."

The Magnum uses the traditional charging algorithm. At the end of bulk when the amps start to taper it enters absorb and the voltage stats to taper.

[CA_Traveler]

125ADC is indeed 125A DC. But read the Magnum spec carefully. Several that I've looked at indicated they reach the rated output ONLY when the AC input is 120V at the Magnum terminals. Mine rated at 100A only produces 80A at 117V input.

Furthermore amps for the charger first supply house loads and THEN the remaining amps charge the battery. Your battery monitors with shunts right on the battery indicate the actual battery amps in or out.

And a caution for those with a Magnum and no battery monitor. When I found out my unit was only charging 80A maximum the display (no BMK) was showing 100A. How can this be? So I started preparing to take the unit to Magnum for repair.

A phone call revealed that a 80A output at 117V AC input was by design. Furthermore the 100A DC output display when the output was 80A was also by design. You see they don't actually measure the DC amp output but rather calculate it based on the AC input - that is not a typo.

The other limiting design is the lack of a remote voltage sense capability. So the charger/inverter has no knowledge of the actual battery voltage.

While the 5 stage Magnum charging is excellent the unit does have "cost/design" compromises as confirmed in my phone call to them.

[Ductape]

A hand held clamp on ammeter is a handy tool for diagnostic purposes. Easy to see if one parallel pair is taking current equal to the other and when you're done charging to half percent.

Example

[MEXICOWANDERER]

It's never fun having to bow and katow to battery whims. The best they can do is arrive at a conscious decision as to compromises - causes and effects. Accept consequences and live with them.

I squeezed hard for information because I do not do well with mysteries.

With regard to Concorde, as with all battery manufacturers the person you speak to on the telephone is not a genuine engineer. No electrical nor chemical degrees. They are educated salesmen in the top tier companies you are more likely to talk to someone who is quite savvy with the product.

But the Lifeline manual is the bible and there isn't an engineer in their employ who is going to argue with it.

At the moment I am engaged in preparing a Meanwell power supply - an RSP-1500-15 to be exact. This is a multiple purpose unit so it is going to be laden with controls and measurement devices.

Wide open, the 1500-15 delivers 132 amperes. The voltage is settable, fixed if you wish to 14.40 volts. And despite what anyone says charging the Lifeline does not have to cease immediately upon reaching .5 amp per 100 amp hours. Three or four hours extra does not hurt or decay a thing.

Putting the device on an AC timer is easy. So is realizing that excess hotel loads should be minimized when attempting a 100% charge.

It's time to put the Magnum on the Hot Seat to see if it has the capability to charge your battery bank at bulk voltage recommendation of the Lifeline (14.40 volts) continuously all the way to the point where amperage will decay to 4.0 amps at 14.40 volts. There is no maybe's or it should's allowed. Either the charger inverter will do it or it won't.

Solar voltaics can be used if the design specifications allow the array to deliver enough power to the batteries to negate hotel power parasitic draw, and therefore allow the panels to finish what the inverter cannot do in a reasonable amount of gen run time.

I had to run my generator for 2.7 hours in the early morning and by three o'clock and change the recharging protocol would finish via the panels and controller.

This does not have to be performed every charging cycle. Achieving full charge every 7th cycle does not severely impact lifespan.

Batteries are batteries and chemistry is chemistry and if batteries are allowed to degrade over a long time then recovery chances will be minimized. Recovery after five years of undercharging is not laden with a bowl full of optimistic thoughts.

"How much is enough versus how much is too much" is a personal decision you have to make and live with with regard to making any battery a happy camper. Pure compromise.

My Trace 4024 is a wad of snot for properly charging any type of battery. A three thousand dollar machine in it's prime. Trace abandoned the finest charger setup when they abandoned the 2812 charger. Went from excellence to useless garbage.

Either your total setup can recharge your batteries to the formula that leaves the batteries charged or it can't. You need a formidable solar array to effectively reduce generator run time.

Or live with the consequences with grim satisfaction...

Let's see. 800 ampere hours of Lithium batteries and the inability to function in sub freezing weather THEN the limitations of whatever management system it takes for preventing a Bugatti Royale from doing a Laurel & Hardy - anyone care to do a workup? Ooooooo don't forget the vehicle charging system interface...

[BFL13]

The Wizbang and Magnum each has a shunt and they agree on AH count and SOC. I don't know how that could be, because a monitor's shunt must have everything connected to it to get the full AH count in and out.

A solar controller is normally upstream from the monitor so the controller's neg to battery wire goes via the shunt same as all the other negs.

With the Wizbang, which substitutes for having any other monitor, its shunt would carry all the negs. But you have the other monitor too.

Is it possible you have some things on one shunt that are not on the other, so your AH count on either monitor is low compared with the real total draw from the bank? That would give you low voltage readings per monitors' idea of being at a higher SOC.

Even with one shunt you can get that if some things do not go through the shunt.

[landyacht318]

Lifeline's tech manual pdf does state that in lieu of being able to meet the minimum 20% rate when deeply cycled, that one can apply a constant current of 2 amps per 100Ah of battery for no more than an hour.

page 20

They do not mention what this 2 amps of constant current might push voltage upto, but I suspect well over 16v.

I've not read in detail or too closely how your system is monitored, but I need to reset my Amp hour counter on a regular basis, and the more high amp recharging I do the more often this needs to be reset, at least with my battery monitor( Blue sky IPN pro remote)

I reset it when I know the battery is full, and I determine that by amps it accepts at absorption voltage, and it is best if I high amp recharge it to that absorption voltage and hold it until amps taper to that level.

Usually when i notice it is out of whack with reality it reads a 6 to 8Ah from full when amps taper to 0.45, but there have been times when it said 0Ah from full when it was still accepting 4 amps and the tapering takes another 2 hours.

No great when one has to monitor the monitor, but so be it.

I am of the opinion that when my AGM is appearing to not hold as high a voltage as it should during discharge, that it is time for a high amp recharge, and the longer I can apply those high amps, the more I heat the battery, the better it seems to perform thereafter until it accumulates more partial state of charge cycles or low and slow solar only recharges.

So when my battery is showing signs of petulance, I drain it well below 50%, in 6 or 7 hours, then combine my 40 amp meanwell power supply with my 25 amp schumacher charger, for 65 amps into a battery rated at 90Ah when new.

It does gain a bunch of temperature doing this, but takes 65 amps for 22 minutes the last time I did this, before it reached 14.7v, and gained at least 15f of temperature, iirc, and temp kept rising until amps tapered below 4.

So I'd drain 2 of your 4 lifelines lower than 75% SOC, quickly and hammer them with the magnum's full output until amps taper, then do the same to the other pair, and note how long each pair takes to reach absorption voltage and how much longer it takes for amps to taper to 0.5% of capacity.

You might just have one underperforming battery of the 4.

If your AC can power a secondary charger, many of us parallel chargers for higher amperages/ faster bulk charging.

Might also want an IR temp gun and see if any connections are getting abnormally hot or hotter than the others during these higher amperage episodes.

That includes the Shunt.

[time2roll]

Consider a lithium battery replacement to eliminate the need for top charge. 90% charged is actually preferred and is very easy as absorption time is fast. This also makes solar more efficient. A bit more money up front however a good value if full time off-grid. Smaller capacity is fine as you can freely use 80% of the capacity instead of 50% for lead-acid.