LTO batteries

Per Stir Crazy, “LFP’s are now by far the cheapest option when you take into account usable AH and cycle life you can get 100AH LFP that test out good for about 400 bucks now, two ok deep cycles are say 320 (costco), but you’re going to replace those costco batteries 4 times before you replace that LFP, more if you shallow discharge and run between 10 and 90% and so on….“

Exactly, and LTO with HALF the power density (requires a doubling of battery count), what emerges is - it’s easy to see why LFP will remain the dominant Lithium battery of choice…

Ultimately (except for certain boutique users…) I see LTO and SiO2 batteries as formats in search of a consumer market…

3 tons

pianotuna wrote:

Many folks here have done so. I like Li so long as they are not used in cold weather.

LTO are more expensive than LiFePo4 but can be used at both higher and lower temperatures.

Sio2 would be my choice as they are not fussy (i.e. no battery management system needed.

For my part I'd love to hear of someone with a similar use pattern to mine using LiFePo4 at -34 F as a "weekend warrior".

your probably not going to, your not even a "weekend warrior at -34, you do it for work. I don't think you'll find anyone who wakes up friday morning and says " look its -34 out, lets hook up and go to the campground"

I think your definition of " as long as there not used in cold weather" is a little flawed I had my camper out at the ski hill a couple weeks ago, it was cold -15C but my batteries prefored like it was summer. did I emjoy camping at that temp, nope but I managed to have fun as it was a school function for the kid and there were lots of parents there to have drinks around the bon fire with..

I don;t know about the price of LTO as I wants going to fill out there inquire now and be subjected to spam e-mail but as for working at a lower and higher temp theres not a lot of difference. the new ones I ordered can discharge to -30C so 10 degrees warmer than the LTO, and can discharge to +60C which I believe is 10 degrees higher than the LTO also. I can tell you at +60 I am not leaving the house so it doesnt matter anyways.

SiO2 is great for very low temps although they do lose up to 60% of there capacity at -20 compared to 20% for my LFP they can handle the ocasional run to 0 but your going to start losing cycles every time you do and not get that 1200 number. I can run to 0 every time and still get 3500. plus you have to limit your charging to under .25C which probably isnt a big deal if you have a big enough bank, with my AC charge and my solar both on I can only reach 0.2C on my bank so right there I am gaining cycles.

plus for me the biggest down side to SIO2 compared to LI is weight and size. LTO looks promising but for the extra 10 degrees on the bottom end I don;t know if they are worth it to many except you. the cycle life is kinda cool, but realy 10000 cycles, thats over 27 years of a cycles each day.. most would never realize that benifit and is it worth the extra cost for somthing that you won't use the features of anyways. LFP are now by far the cheepest option when you take into acount usable AH and cycle life you can get 100AH LFP that test out good for about 400 bucks now, two ok deep cycles are say 320 (costco)
but your going to replace thoes costco batteries 4 times before you replace that LFP, more if you shallow dischare and run between 10 and 90% and so on..

PT says, “For my part I'd love to hear of someone with a similar use pattern to mine using LiFePo4 at -34 F as a "weekend warrior"…

Fair enough - your operating requirements are a somewhat unique situation (per past stated parameters…), and it’s
great to know that the LTO option exist - but are most others to assume that LFP’s temperature parameters are somehow insurmountable??

From my perspective, the opposite is true via either interior mounting, built-in heater circuitry or by using an aftermarket heating pad, and bear in mind that although charging needs to be avoided below 32d/f, still, LFP’s are capable of discharging down to -04 d/f, and (for those unable to solve for low temps) consider that the extra (approx 100%, per case volume) power density helps to mitigate recharging until ambient conditions might improve…JMHO… My solution (two 200a/hr LFP’s) was to opt for interior mounting, without added optional heaters…

3 tons

ron4adams wrote:
I have been in correspondence with a sales rep at Dakota Lithium and they seem quite knowledgeable. I still haven't learned enough to know how much the conversion from lead acid to lithium would cost me but am considering it for both carriage batteries and engine battery. If anyone has already converted I would be interested in your experience.

Many folks here have done so. I like Li so long as they are not used in cold weather.

LTO are more expensive than LiFePo4 but can be used at both higher and lower temperatures.

Sio2 would be my choice as they are not fussy (i.e. no battery management system needed.

For my part I'd love to hear of someone with a similar use pattern to mine using LiFePo4 at -34 F as a "weekend warrior".

I have been in correspondence with a sales rep at Dakota Lithium and they seem quite knowledgeable. I still haven't learned enough to know how much the conversion from lead acid to lithium would cost me but am considering it for both carriage batteries and engine battery. If anyone has already converted I would be interested in your experience.

“they are large compared to LFP per AH capacity, not much though” - huh??

Slightly larger than the size of my single 200a/hr AIMS LFP, yet (at only 100a/hrs…) only HALF the amperage??

Added cost aside, suggest a huge difference in power density - they won’t be on my Xmas list…

3 tons

pianotuna wrote:

vermilye wrote:


I'd also ask about the physical size of a 100 amp hour 12V battery. Since it appears that the energy density is close to 1/3 that of a standard lithium battery, it may be impracticably large.

Dimension: 281(H)*528(L)*240(W)mm

or

11" (H) 21" (L) 9.5 " (W)

they are large compared to LFP per AH capacity, not much though, the working twmp is -30C to 55C acording to there spec sheet no mention of charging, the working temp for LFP is -20 to 60C. the 20000 cycle life is rated at 0.2C the LFP I just ordered is 5000 at 0.5C my older ones were 3500 at 1C. at 0.2C and shallow discharge I imagin I can get 10000+ cycles if I live that long.. the only reason some one whould want one over a LFP is for the cold weather charging, but they don't even make mention of that on the page.. unless I missed it so is that still true , or was it theoretical in a lab?

that page is set up so bad you go buy one little section then they talking about LFP again when your on the LTIT page...

Steve

pianotuna wrote:

vermilye wrote:


I'd also ask about the physical size of a 100 amp hour 12V battery. Since it appears that the energy density is close to 1/3 that of a standard lithium battery, it may be impracticably large.

Dimension: 281(H)*528(L)*240(W)mm

or

11" (H) 21" (L) 9.5 " (W)

Note, Slightly larger than my Aims 200a/h LiFePo4, BUT only half the amp/hrs…Size and cost aside, it might occur to many that it would less costly to drop off $50 bucks at Amazon on a 12v 25w silicon heating pad ($30), and a 12v digital programmable temp controller ($20)…JMO

3 tons

vermilye wrote:


I'd also ask about the physical size of a 100 amp hour 12V battery. Since it appears that the energy density is close to 1/3 that of a standard lithium battery, it may be impracticably large.

Dimension: 281(H)*528(L)*240(W)mm

or

11" (H) 21" (L) 9.5 " (W)

MEXICOWANDERER wrote:
Since they are rated to 10° F and use with "electric skateboards"
I would make sure they are "Thunder Proof"

-50 C; -58 F to 60 C; 140 F