Non-renewable Lithium...Fact.

JRscooby wrote:

markchengr wrote:
I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.

As far as that goes we already have, and have had for decades, the ability to change tractors under a trailer in less time than it can take to fill the tank on the tractor. This might reduce the demand for interchangeable batteries on large trucks.
Then we have seen posts where some do not want to exchange propane tank because they might get a older one. Do you think they will swap batteries?
I don't know how a quick charger works. I know, if you hook a mostly discharged 12V battery to a fully charged 12V battery with heavy cables it does not take long before both batteries have the same voltage? I think in theory, if the fully charged battery had a extra cell, so normal discharge voltage was higher than the charged voltage of the other, and say 50% more capacity, how long would it take to charge a battery? Of course, once the charging battery had done it's job it would take a while to recharge it.

It may happen for large trucks but not for cars. What would be the point. The average stop for a Tesla model 3?at a V3 Supercharger is already down to 15 minutes. Next version will probably be under 10.

markchengr wrote:
I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.

As far as that goes we already have, and have had for decades, the ability to change tractors under a trailer in less time than it can take to fill the tank on the tractor. This might reduce the demand for interchangeable batteries on large trucks.
Then we have seen posts where some do not want to exchange propane tank because they might get a older one. Do you think they will swap batteries?
I don't know how a quick charger works. I know, if you hook a mostly discharged 12V battery to a fully charged 12V battery with heavy cables it does not take long before both batteries have the same voltage? I think in theory, if the fully charged battery had a extra cell, so normal discharge voltage was higher than the charged voltage of the other, and say 50% more capacity, how long would it take to charge a battery? Of course, once the charging battery had done it's job it would take a while to recharge it.

I'm thinking that eventually they will standardize the battery packs into just a few sizes (big trucks, buses, cars etc.) and make them quickly and easily replaceable somewhat like a cassette toilet. They're already working on this for long haul trucks. Then you will pull into an electric fueling station, change out your battery pack with a charged one and be on your way much the same as filling your tank today. It probably won't happen in my lifetime but I think it's the future. -Mark.

MrWizard wrote:
Soda pop companies and beer bottlers,did that for many years, until alu cans and plastic bottles were introduced
My question who invented these throw away options, the bottlers, or the alu and plastic industries, seeking to grow their markets, somebody convinced the bottlers it was less costly to buy new alu and plastic containers, than washing the glass bottles, every truck going out for delivery, brought back empties to the warehouse

Yes, we and industry can easily change to waste more energy and material. Could we, with more education, or a different value set, make changes the other way?
Of course some other part of the world, not USA, will need to take the lead on this.

pianotuna wrote:
2oldman our sun may last another 5 billion years. After that--it's curtains.

That's why its a good idea to always keep your batteries fully charged.

Doug

Reisender wrote:
Nope. Used EV batteries are already in high demand. Expected real world lifespan of the cells is 30 years. Never make assumptions on todays technology. In three years it will be a different game.

PS. I'm one of those who trade in their vehicle every 5 or 6 years. (I like tech) Whoever gets my EV next spring will have an amazing problem free EV with probably at least another decade of life...if not more. We have a bunch of neighbours who have already called dibs.

In cars, the useful life of LiFePO4 batteries is about 10 years. After that they still have lots of life, but capacity and maximum rate of discharge decrease to the point where they're no longer effective in a car. So the person getting your car has 5 years, not 10, before they'll need to do something (unless either they or you don't drive much). At that point they're good as backup storage for solar/wind on the grid, where capacity vs. weight and volume isn't as much of an issue and discharge can be spread out over many banks, where they can be used for another 15-20 years.

After that (25 to 30 years old), most will be spent and they need to be disposed of somehow. Hopefully by then there's a cost-effective way to recover the metals from them for re-use. Right now there are ways but they're not cost effective.

Soda pop companies and beer bottlers,did that for many years, until alu cans and plastic bottles were introduced
My question who invented these throw away options, the bottlers, or the alu and plastic industries, seeking to grow their markets, somebody convinced the bottlers it was less costly to buy new alu and plastic containers, than washing the glass bottles, every truck going out for delivery, brought back empties to the warehouse

profdant139 wrote:
Actually, Gary, this thread actually illustrates the value of dialogue. I am a pro-EV person -- we are considering getting an EV car for DW, who does not need much range. And yes, we have solar panels on our roof at home.

But I had never stopped to think about the finite nature of lithium, until the OP posted a question. And then I did a little googling and found that yes, although lithium is plentiful in the short run, there are long term concerns.

This has always amazed me; Nobody that has looked at pictures sent back from space should think of anything as limitless. But the goal of the masters of the universe is to keep the economy growing (growth requires consumption or resources) forever.

So I discovered something by actually listening to someone with whom I might disagree. This is a good thing.

To often when facing somebody we might disagree with we spend our time thinking about what we are going to say, instead of listening to what is being said.
It is not possible to change somebody else's mind unless you are willing to change yours.

Gdetrailer wrote:
While it IS "possible" to "recycle" (as in fully break down a Lith battery to the basic components and purity) the problem is to do so IS prohibitively EXPENSIVE to do so.

To break down all of the components to their purest form that is required takes considerable amount of more energy than just digging up new raw material and processing it to a ready usable product.

The same thing can be said for simple things like glass. We could save a lot of energy if instead of crushing the glass we would just clean and reuse the jar. And by standardizing size and shape, where the cleaned bottle could go to any bottler that needed, we could save more. Why does every brand of ketchup need to have it's own bottle shape?

JRscooby wrote:

CFerguson wrote:
In 1970, I read a paper that 'proved' that we would run out of lead by 1982. I cut out the article to remind me to fact check it when the time rolled around. And dang if we STILL haven't run out of lead. or peak oil. or a hundred other things that went full chicken little.

Commodities are subject to Capitalism (til gov gets involved in stealing from all parties, of course) and thus will never run out. Youll only have to pay more and more as the supply declines. Eventually some bright bulb will figure out a way to recycle it or find a cheaper substitute. Or an entire new tech will come along and obsolete the entire thing anyway.

Don't sweat it.

But if nobody had pointed out the issue, started the development of recycling, would we have the lead we need? (And some of the technology used in recycling is used in the mines to protect the miners and people living in the area)
As for "Capitalism will save us"; We have proven, to the capitalist at least, that without pushback from strong labor unions, or government regulation, capitalism will save everything for fewer and fewer people.

Did you bother to read my entire post? If recycling was the solution as you said then it proves my point. Looks like that flew completely over your head.

2oldman wrote:
Li is one of the most abundant resources, but everything has its limits...except sunshine.

well...

“Inside the sun, a churning fusion engine fuels the star, and it still has a lot of fuel left — about 5 billion years' worth.”

But I guess we do have some time. :B

Dsve