Scotty I need more power!

[msmith1199]

After a recent extended trip without hookups, and a lot of research, I decided I need more battery capacity! But I have no room for another battery. About two years ago I bought two Battle Born 100 AH Lipo4 batteries. I downsized my motorhome to a smaller Class C and there isn’t room in the battery compartment and no nearby location to put another. But BattleBorn does make 270ah battery that will fit in the existing compartment. If I was buying now I’d definitely get that one over the two 100AH batteries. And I still may get it anyway. But it is $2400! I may go ahead and do it if I thought I could sell my two year old batteries. Is there a market for used LiPo4 batteries? I think I paid about $900 each for them and they are $950 each now. If I could get half that I’d pull the trigger and get the bigger battery.

[msmith1199]

ktmrfs wrote:

msmith1199 wrote:
It’s a progressive dynamics 4560. I have not run the batteries dead yet and it’s only been a few days. I was getting 17 amps to the batteries when they were showing 53% full. Today they were under 50% and the Shunt showed 22 amps. So I don’t know what the max is. I do know if I started turning items on in the motorhome that used battery power, the amps going to charge the batteries would drop a little.

This sounds odd to me. But maybe lithium charge rates are different.

However, my guess is it isn't going into bulk mode charging automatically. If it is the unit I believe it is, there is a small red button in the converter box. push it to force into bulk mode charging. Then it should jump to 40+A.
while it says "not recomended" to mess with the mode, I've found it often usefull to force the charger into boost mode on partially charged battery and it will drop out when it reaches full charge.

Here is info from the manual

"

The Charge Wizard Operation While the built-in Charge Wizard automatically determines which operating mode is best suited to recharge or maintain optimum battery condition, the Wizard Mode Button allows for manual override and has an indicator light to indicate the mode of operation. NOTE: The Green LED on the left refers to the Charge Wizard - the Red LED on the right is for the Charge Sentinel (optionally available) Light “ON” – Indicates the converter is in the Boost Mode and the output voltage is 14.4 VDC to rapidly recharge the battery up to 90% of full charge. Light Blinks Rapidly (every 2-3 seconds) – Indicates the converter is in the Normal Mode and the output voltage is 13.6VDC. In this mode the converter is safely completing the charge of the battery. Light Blinks Slowly (every 5-6 seconds) – Indicates the unit is in the Storage Mode and the output voltage has been lowered to 13.2VDC. In this mode the RV battery is fully charged and the converter is maintaining the charge. MANUAL BUTTON. The manual button has been provided to allow the operator to manually override the converter (not recommended) and to verify the converter is operating properly. For manual operation, Press and Hold the button. The indicator light will soon remain “ON” indicating Boost Mode. Continue to hold the button and the light will blink rapidly indicating the converter is in the Normal Mode. Continue to hold the button until the light blinks slowly indicating the converter is now in the Storage Mode. After th

On a pair of GC2 that are at 50% my PD50A charger will start at 45-50A charge current and hold that fill the batteries are around 70% then start to drop. It doesn't drop to 20A till it's near 90%.

I think you got this from the PD 4600 series manual. Mine is a 4500 series and I don’t believe has this mode available.

[Grit_dog]

OPs camper is only 2 years old. Maybe I misread something a couple years ago when I was gonna can the Wfco for a PD. Canned the whole camper instead….
But I thought all newer PD converters came pre-loaded with the Charge Wizard? Although not having the CW doesn’t prevent bulk charging, it actually controls the finer end of things at the top of the charging cycle and battery maintenance charging.
Maybe it’s just not playing nice with the BMSsses in the BB batteries?
Sorry option 11 just presented.

[StirCrazy]

msmith1199 wrote:
It’s a progressive dynamics 4560. I have not run the batteries dead yet and it’s only been a few days. I was getting 17 amps to the batteries when they were showing 53% full. Today they were under 50% and the Shunt showed 22 amps. So I don’t know what the max is. I do know if I started turning items on in the motorhome that used battery power, the amps going to charge the batteries would drop a little.

do you have other 12V things running in the rv while you're doing this?

The 60amp output is shared between everything being powered. so, if you have 20 amps of other things takin g power only 40 will be available for charging. Also, what voltage are you seeing with the amps going to the batteries? If you are seeing 13.0V then 50% is the most you will ever get the batteries to charge to.

Steve

[ktmrfs]

msmith1199 wrote:
It’s a progressive dynamics 4560. I have not run the batteries dead yet and it’s only been a few days. I was getting 17 amps to the batteries when they were showing 53% full. Today they were under 50% and the Shunt showed 22 amps. So I don’t know what the max is. I do know if I started turning items on in the motorhome that used battery power, the amps going to charge the batteries would drop a little.

This sounds odd to me. But maybe lithium charge rates are different.

However, my guess is it isn't going into bulk mode charging automatically. If it is the unit I believe it is, there is a small red button in the converter box. push it to force into bulk mode charging. Then it should jump to 40+A.
while it says "not recomended" to mess with the mode, I've found it often usefull to force the charger into boost mode on partially charged battery and it will drop out when it reaches full charge.

Here is info from the manual

"

The Charge Wizard Operation While the built-in Charge Wizard automatically determines which operating mode is best suited to recharge or maintain optimum battery condition, the Wizard Mode Button allows for manual override and has an indicator light to indicate the mode of operation. NOTE: The Green LED on the left refers to the Charge Wizard - the Red LED on the right is for the Charge Sentinel (optionally available) Light “ON” – Indicates the converter is in the Boost Mode and the output voltage is 14.4 VDC to rapidly recharge the battery up to 90% of full charge. Light Blinks Rapidly (every 2-3 seconds) – Indicates the converter is in the Normal Mode and the output voltage is 13.6VDC. In this mode the converter is safely completing the charge of the battery. Light Blinks Slowly (every 5-6 seconds) – Indicates the unit is in the Storage Mode and the output voltage has been lowered to 13.2VDC. In this mode the RV battery is fully charged and the converter is maintaining the charge. MANUAL BUTTON. The manual button has been provided to allow the operator to manually override the converter (not recommended) and to verify the converter is operating properly. For manual operation, Press and Hold the button. The indicator light will soon remain “ON” indicating Boost Mode. Continue to hold the button and the light will blink rapidly indicating the converter is in the Normal Mode. Continue to hold the button until the light blinks slowly indicating the converter is now in the Storage Mode. After th

On a pair of GC2 that are at 50% my PD50A charger will start at 45-50A charge current and hold that fill the batteries are around 70% then start to drop. It doesn't drop to 20A till it's near 90%.

[Grit_dog]

Apologies I didn’t provide options 9 and 10 back at the start of this thread.
9. Are you getting too much resistance or voltage drop or n the charging leads?
10. Is your presumably good converter being spread too thin while charging?

There are just soooo many more options to explore before spending $34 per additional amp hour…

[Grit_dog]

Was waiting for someone to ask that but didn’t want to be presumptive and figured maybe you had a cheap/little converter.
I too would think that those big bad Battleborns would suck up juice like it was coming out a high pressure firehouse. 20amps giver take don’t sound right. But you have to try to isolate the issue. Those converters are pretty bomber, but something else could be sucking power, even the wiring to the batteries being insufficient to carry the load.

[msmith1199]

It’s a progressive dynamics 4560. I have not run the batteries dead yet and it’s only been a few days. I was getting 17 amps to the batteries when they were showing 53% full. Today they were under 50% and the Shunt showed 22 amps. So I don’t know what the max is. I do know if I started turning items on in the motorhome that used battery power, the amps going to charge the batteries would drop a little.

[ktmrfs]

what charger is in your trailer? I would expect that charging current would be on the order of at least 40A initially, then taper as the battery reaches near full charge.

Now if the charger/converter in the trailer is the (in)famous WFCO, that explains a lot. they seldom if ever actually will put out much charging current and hence take forever to get a decent charge into the battery.

[msmith1199]

MrWizard wrote:
You can run multiple chargers as long as they play nice with each other, you won't hurt the batteries or the chargers, but if there are differences in the charging voltage , one might decide the batteries are charged and reduce its output, sensing the higher voltage of the other charger and deciding the batteries are near full, it depends on the electronics of each device, this happens more with external automotive style chargers then converters, the factory built in converters are more like DC power supplies than smart chargers, and should work ok in tandem with the lithium charger, the additional 20 amps seems like a good idea, definitely something i would try

I emailed the converter people and they said their converter would work fine with another charger. I don’t know if they considered what you said here. They just said I wouldn’t damage it. Now that I have the SmartShunt installed it’s very easy to see what the batteries are doing. I need to go out dry camping for a few days and I think I can better tell if I even need any new or additional batteries at all. I do know that if the two I have are fully charged at the end of the evening then they will last all night even if I use the furnace all night with freezing temps outside. I think my problem before was I had no way to tell how charged the batteries were. The SmartShunt will fix that problem.

Right now the SmartShunt is showing the converter supplies between 17 and 22 amps to the batteries. So at that rate I’m looking at 9 hours to fully charge the batteries from the generator from completely dead. If I get an external charger and can get that up to 50 amps, then I’m thinking I can charge them in 4 hours from completely dead. I think the external charger pays for itself in gas alone in the generator for extended boondocking stays. Since I know I’m not using all 200ah in one day, I think I can keep them charged with a couple of hours a day of generator use which was my goal. But I’ll have to wait until I get back out there and see what the SmartShunt tells me.

[MrWizard]

You can run multiple chargers as long as they play nice with each other, you won't hurt the batteries or the chargers, but if there are differences in the charging voltage , one might decide the batteries are charged and reduce its output, sensing the higher voltage of the other charger and deciding the batteries are near full, it depends on the electronics of each device, this happens more with external automotive style chargers then converters, the factory built in converters are more like DC power supplies than smart chargers, and should work ok in tandem with the lithium charger, the additional 20 amps seems like a good idea, definitely something i would try

[msmith1199]

MrWizard wrote:
The only way to cut generator recharge runtime. While still using the same amphrs of power is to use a bigger charger/converter that can supply more amps up to max amount the batteries can absorb , replacing 200ampHrs with 270Ahrs, might allow you that third night with heat, but it is Not going to shorten your generator runtime, replenishing the planned for battery ,
capacity , replacing what was used the night before, will require the same amount of time. Unless a stronger charge system is used
I'm assuming that you think that with a 70 amphrs increase, you have a buffer where you can run the generator less and not go back to full charge on Day #2 and #3, and still have n enough battery power for heat on night #3,
You have not provided info to show this is possible,
How many amphrs is used overnight, how many amphrs will a 2 hour or 3 hour charge return to the batteries,
Do you have a battery power monitor that will track battery capacity , track power out and back in , show you the "state of charge percentage" , the amphrs remaining in your batteries

Let me ask you a question. I have the Victron SmartShunt installed now. My onboard converter seems to be supplying about 17 amps to the batteries when either plugged in or with the generator on. I also have the Victron DC to DC system installed so when the engine is running I’m getting 27 amps. With the engine and generator both running I’m getting over 40 amps. So the main problem seems to be with the converter. Instead of upgrading that, can I get a lithium battery charger that I can plug into a 120 outlet and hook directly to the battery so it charges the battery too when the generator is running? That won’t feed back into the converter will it and damage the converter? I see Victron has a 20 amp plug in charger and if I could use that and get 37 amps to the batteries with the generator running that could also cut my generator run time way down.

[deltabravo]

msmith1199 wrote:
Is there a market for used LiPo4 batteries?

Yes.
There's a market for nearly everything on Craigslist.
I sell all sorts of things on CL.

[pianotuna]

msmith1199,

Is there a reason you won't consider solar?

Solar is about the closest thing to a free lunch you are likely to find.

It is the best way to provide the extra 70 amp-hours you want to have over a three day period.

[AllegroD]

Cheaper clones. Will Prowse has a great vid review on Queen & Ampere Time (now Li Time) These are up to 460 at reasonable prices.
Will Prowse review

[Cptnvideo]

That's what I tried to tell him, but my wording wasn't as clear as yours, MrWizard.